Talk:The real McCoy

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Elijah McCoy?

The source cited as evidence that the phrase arose from Elijah McCoy's lubricating device was actually a web page about how McCoy had nothing to do with the phrase, so it is in fact evidence against this contention. Unless someone finds a reliable source proponing Elijah McCoy's lubrication machine as a theory for the phrase this contention has no place in this article. --Dcowboys3109 (talk) 20:05, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with HughMor. I clearly recall from a Black history course at Rutgers University that the term "the real McCoy" originated from and refers to Elijah McCoy's lubricating device. -- ClaudetteRR 4/1/08

For a phrase rather than a film title, I think capitalization should be changed and this article moved to "The real McCoy". Thoughts, objections? -- Infrogmation 19:47, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree. -- Quuxplusone 06:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I heard from a history teacher that this phrase referred to Elijah McCoy and his machine lubricating device. -HughMor

I had confused this page with a disambiguation page. I doubt that the British sketch show was a source of the phrase. Remove it if you like. --Billpg 18:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Try Doing Some Real Research

There's an awful lot of discussion in the article and the Talk page without anyone thinking of checking the Oxford English Dictionary, which has an 1848 variant as its earliest evidence of "the real McCoy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.7.241 (talk) 23:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Macao

For 'street' language it is quite possible, that originally the idiom borned due to MAcao, then ironically applied to Kid McCoy, and at last his fame overcome the origin and everyone forgot of Macao. So it might be a number of scenarios is true at the same time.

Us McCoy's are actually descendents of the MacKay's (Scotland) before we immigrated to Ireland and had our name Anglicized to MacCoy or McCoy. When we immigrated to the US because of the potato famines and of course many of us moved to the hills of Kentucky and West Virginia, I'm sure the term moved with us, giving credence to all the sources, at least as carrying the phrase on. With the MacKay one being the earliest, which I'd never heard of, I'd say the prize should go to it for origins, but to the others for keeping it going. Many phrases don't stand the test of time and need some of this kind of help. J. McCoy, 8-12-06

Kid McCoy

Hammermill Papers ran an ad in the 90’s: "The Real McCoy Wasn’t." I have a copy of this ad if anyone is interested. According to the Hammermill ad, Norman Selby left the farm in Indiana around 1890. A year later, he surface in the ring as Kid McCoy. The Kid was something. He said he’d fight anyone, anywhere, and he did. For years he averaged a fight a month, winning most by knockouts.

A hose of imitation Kid McCoys soon cropped up. But on March 24, 1899, any confusion ended for good. The Kid, in a titanic slugfest that cost him three broken ribs, finished off the legendary Joe Choynski in the 20th round.

The San Francisco Examiner’s boxing writer proclaimed, “NOW YOU’VE SEEN THE REAL McCOY!”

From that time on, the real McCoy implies the genuine article or in Coke language, “The real Thing.” jrfish 6-16-07

The real McCoy is about Elijah McCoy Greroja (talk) 16:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just for what it's worth, Elijah McCoy was not the originator of the phrase here in the US but to my knowledge and experience it was in reference to his products. He was the creator of what is technically known as a hydrostatic displacement lubricator (it puts oil into the steam of any steam-fed device by condensing water from the steam to pressurize the oil to greater than the steam line pressure). He manufactured the original devices, and thence many other steam engine (locomotive, marine and stationary engine) accessories as the Detroit Lubricator Company. It was not part of the company's promotions, but it was well-known that Mr. McCoy was the owner and proprietor. As referenced in the Wiki article, his devices - all of them - were generally copied by competitors rather quickly, and in so doing they tended to omit various key parts or were made cheaply so they tended to be of inferior quality and limited longevity. It is well-known among people in the steam-engine profession and hobby in the US that the phrase "always ask for the real McCoy" is attributed to the purchase and use of these devices even if it wasn't an actual promoted advertising concept by Mr. McCoy or the Detroit Lubricator Company. The fact that the usage of the phrase was not part of their advertising, but was strictly word-of-mouth between working individuals compounds the dilemma of tracking the phase to a specific date or to this application. However, many phrases have their origins in the steam engine trades, which was then the apex of technology. "Balls to the walls", "making the grade," "highball," "blowing off some steam" and many others can be attributed to stationary, marine, and railroad applications of steam technologies. It is even said that the phrase "got things all wrapped up" originally referred to the completion of the difficult (and many times frustrating) task of applying lagging (insulation) that is put on steam boilers to improve efficiency.

T. Fuller —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.7.43 (talk) 05:54, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"the real Mackay"?

"In Scotland the reference is always the real MacKay (with the ay pronounced as i).. In Ireland this changed to McCoy. The Irish MacKays, McCoys and Magees originated in Scotland, crossing to the Ulster Plantations in the 17th century."

Does anyone have a reference for this? Looking at the Origins section, this might have been the case, but I've never heard it used that way in Scotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.50.56 (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t have a citation, just the experience, and “Real McKay” is how I have heard it used in Scotland - in the N.E./ Speyside whisky country (mostly in relation to whisky, as it happens,but not always McKay’s!) it seems to be a compliment, to suggest that what you have been given to drink (or eat) is good. Perhaps it’s a regional thing, if you have lived/ been elsewhere in the country? In one of his "Star Trek" adaptations, James Blish used the title “The Unreal McCoy” for the TV story “The Man Trap”, and at the time I just thought it was a bad pun, not an actual expression in use. Jock123 (talk) 11:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NLCast

"the username of someone on the NLCast forums, who guest hosted in episode 60."

This is confusing. What is NLCast? http://nobodyslistening.net/feed/?http://nobodyslistening.net/feed/?

It sounds like it's talking about a internet forums. If so, this stands out as probibly false. I'm fairly certain this term is older than the internet (All other possible origins are Pre-internet. and it would be fairly easy to confirm if it was pre-internet. ) (Foolster41) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.183.7 (talk) 07:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see someone added more information saying it's the name of "caleb". Who "Caleb" is not known. I'm just removing the line since I'm about 80% certain that this phrase predates the internet. (Foolster41) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.183.7 (talk) 07:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. Never mind. Someone beat me to it just now. Thanks. (Foolster41)

I think that this NLCast business might just have some truth to it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.210.142.6 (talk) 21:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC) i belive the was a black inventor named elisha mcoy and when people would call him the real mcoy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.207.113 (talk) 02:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Found 1846 (older) reference than stated

I have found in an 1846 copy of Niles National Register, Volume 70, page 411 the phrase "the real McKay" which pertains to a bill. This is an older source than anyone else seems to have published relative to the discussion of the origin. We need to revise the article. Here's the source.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I've found an 1898 publishing of the "real McCoy" in the U.S. (New York) of Wallace Lloyd's Houses of glass: A philosophical romance page 104....which means the article is wrong about the 1908 publishing for the U.S.

There is also an 1881 Canadian publishing of the "real McCoy" in, The rise and fall of the "Union club": or, Boy life in Canada By James S. Bond, which has the phrase on page 1.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:56, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The Niles Register may be a coincidental occurrence but not as the standalone compound so I've restored the 1856 listing as first.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More about Elijah McCoy / Organizing this article

Elijah McCoy: An article at BrightHub has the most thorough account I've seen of Elijah McCoy's career, including an advertisement linking an image of him to the phrase "Real McCoy." It leads to the conclusion that the phrase was not coined because of Elijah McCoy, but his manufacturing company did use the well-known phrase in its advertising, beginning after McCoy's death in 1929.

McCoy's invention of an automatic lubricating system for steam engines was superior to those of imitators, according to BrightHub. Another tertiary source dates McCoy's patent for the device to 1872 (the first of at least 57 patents he received in his lifetime). However there is no evidence that customers actually insisted on "the real McCoy" when ordering the devices, nor is there evidence for the widely quoted phrase "always ask for the real McCoy." None of the online sources that repeat that phrase have documented it.[1]

What we do know is that after McCoy's death in 1929, the McCoy Manufacturing Co. used the phrase "It's the Real McCoy," with the last two words in large type. The slogan depends on readers already being familiar with the phrase "real McCoy" as a term for something genuine and desirable. So our first evidence of the phrase as related to Elijah McCoy is from 1929 or after, more than sixty years after "the real MacKay/McKie/McCoy" crossed the ocean from Scotland.

Organizing this article: So what should we do with all these half-baked theories about the origin of "the real McCoy"? Well, the most helpful discussion I've seen, either in print or online, is the article at snopes.com that debunks Elijah McCoy's claim to the title, then goes on to discuss evidence for other claims. Based on that discussion (and avoiding original research), I suggest:

1. Describing the consensus in favor of the "the real McKay," referring to the Scottish whisky.

2. The fame of the boxer called "the real McCoy" as a factor in making the phrase well known in the United States.

3. People and things that came later and capitalized on the popularity of the phrase. (Elijah McCoy's company belongs here.)

4. Examples of false etymology concerning the phrase. (The Hatfields and McCoys belong here.)

Some cases, like that of Joseph McCoy, will be dubious. If we can't point to a source indicating that he actually was called "the real McCoy," then I would place him in the fourth category as a false etymology.

Comments? Should we incubate a rewrite?

Amended to correct my incorrect statement that Elijah McCoy was missing from the article. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 16:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please take a look at Elijah McCoy. As you note (now), he is mentioned (briefly) in the Real McCoy article, which discusses this extensively. Hope that helps. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you state "It leads to the conclusion that the phrase was not coined because of Elijah McCoy, but his manufacturing company did use the well-known phrase in its advertising, beginning after McCoy's death in 1929.". That is your conclusion as the article does not say any such thing. They may have been using this phrase during his lifetime.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that McCoy's company may have used the phrase during his lifetime, but that still doesn't take is far enough into the past to antedate other uses of the phrase "the real McCoy," which was a slang term by 1881. McCoy had patented his invention before 1881, and produced many other patented innovations over the years, but he got little credit for his achievements until starting his own company in 1920. As a black man in a racist society, he could not get a professional job despite his advanced education, so it would be remarkable if his name had somehow become a byword for quality. As is discussed in Elijah McCoy, engineering texts at the time have almost nothing to say about McCoy even when discussing lubrication systems like the one he patented. He managed to find investors, but he had to make concessions to them, so his work apparently was not associated with his name until he started his own company — in 1920. Even then, the "real McCoy" ad displayed with the BrightHub article (an image I haven’t yet seen anywhere else) dates from after McCoy's death in 1929. The phrase was already in widespread use for almost 50 years by then. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 20:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, we don't even know for certain that the Brighthub "Real McCoy" ad is original. It looks to me like a clumsy Photoshop effort. 82.132.136.200 (talk) 10:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This show me as an american that we have not come very far as people, the fact the something so outlandish could be used to discredit a great american that is already understated. I used to defend Wikipedia when people said that is was not a credible source, now I see how it can be a tool for people to push their personal agenda. Look at the reference used, the first written, remotely american published document came from Mccoy's home country of Canada, which I'm sure they would have known of a hometown kid making good in the states. It's not like train conductors and mechanics go around publishing their sayings in notable forums today with the internet; we expect them to do so during the 1800's? If he himself was a part of the train conductor community, other train conductors or oilers would have heard of such an advance in technology that made their jobs so much easier, and most certainly would have known the name of a person that came from their ranks to make such a improvement, probably shopping it around himself for a while before seeking a patent. Not to mention that he had numerous other inventions to his credit that had others to try and duplicate, which was probably this country's first introductions to knockoffs, which make more sense since that is the context in which americans use this phrase and not in reference to irish names or literature. This game of, Documented Evidence over Human Logic is getting out of control. Im not a scholar and don't clam to be or have to be to see right through this. Its seems that for this entry the most illogical possibility was used, and may be poisoning the minds of those that use this website to search for truth. Sorry, I have no references except my own common sense, and what I learned in school. You should rewrite this, ASAP, Hope this Helps...

ref?

"Elijah McCoy is often overlooked, but McCoy was a Canadian-born inventor, possibly linking his legacy to a Canadian publication. McCoy was also educated in Scotland, where he may easily have been exposed to the phrase "The real MacKay", whether he himself was a drinker or not. And lastly, the Canadian publication The Rise and Fall of the "Union club" which is first credited with the sudden and mysterious popular change from MacKay to McCoy was published at least 9 years after Elijah McCoy's invention of his famous oil-dripping cup. Elijah McCoy is often cited as a sure mythical contribution to the term "The real McCoy"(as opposed to the original Scottish term) however, the facts draw stronger parallels than most of the other possibilities listed above."

How is the above a reference?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 19:28, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology half explained

Drop of what? A hat? Liquid?

MacKay what? A person? A brand?

Please say so in the article. Jidanni (talk) 11:32, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:The Real McCoy (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:32, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The Real McCoys" was a television series

I know that Star Trek is hugely popular in the Wikipedia community, but there was a very popular American television series that predated "Star Trek TOS".

"The Real McCoys" ran for six seasons so it deserves more accolades than "Star Trek TOS" and should be mentioned at the top in the "In Popular Culture" section. Matthewota (talk) 12:36, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]