Talk:Ivar Vidfamne

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Untitled

Ivar Vidfamne is the same as Ivar the Boneless

Haabet, we are already dealing with your theories on the Swedish Wikipedia and the Danish has been averted. I guess I have to open that rfc on you.--Wiglaf 20:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I is not my teori but a teori of Kirsten Møller see ISBN 87-986342-0-8 Haabet 03:53, 2005 May 18 (UTC)

Haabet, after seeing how you read Saxo (Talk:List of dubious Danish kings), I'd rather you wait until I have verified whether she mentions either of them.--Wiglaf 06:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

From Stockholm.se

Vem var Ivar Vidfamne? (2006-04-12) Vem var Ivar Vidfamne som har gett Ivar Vidfamnes gata dess namn?

Svar: Ivar Vidfamne var en dansk sagokung, som berättas ha fått sitt tillnamn genom att lägga under sig stora områden kring Östersjön, bl a Sveaväldet, och i Saxland och England. Enligt sagan var han farmors far till Sigurd Ring.

http://www.stockholm.se/Extern/Templates/FAQPage.aspx?id=90526

NORDISK FAMILJEBOK KONVERSATIONSLEXIKON OCH REALENCYKLOPEDI:

Ivar Vidfamne, dansk sagokonung, son af Halfdan, hvilken på anstiftan af Ingjald Illrådes (se I n g-j a l d 1) dotter Åsa blef dräpt af sin broder konung Gudröd i Skåne, Asas make. När hon efter Gudröds död farit hem till sin fader, följde I. efter med en stor här för att hämnas, och Ingjald, som ej vågade strida mot öfvermakten, tog sig själf af daga. Därefter lade I. under sig hela Svea välde, hela Danmark, en stor del af Saxland, länderna kring Östersjön och en........

--Arigato1 10:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A website, and an article from a 1910 encyclopedia? You'll need to try harder. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this is a Swedish encyclopedia. I really don't think there is much different from that encyclopedia and a new encyclopedia since the original sources are the same. And as you see, this is still in use. --Arigato1 12:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dansk?

Hur fan kan han vara en dansk kung när han beskrivs som kung av Götarna och hans rike e småland, götaland och östra svealand?

e det bara jag som osar utländsk okunskap och förväxling eller har nån halvlärd jänkare skrivit detta? eller i varje fall så har någon gjort artikelns karta lite väl fel...

--Carl

He came from a Danish dynasty and Scania was not Sweden that time. There was actually nothing called Sweden that time. He also became king of Zealand --JHF1000 (talk) 13:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was not danish, he was scanian. archeological evidence points toward scania being an independent kingdom at the time of Ivar, before being conquered and connected to the danish kingdom around 970-1000 ad. Since he is described as being born in scania and being scanian and the started as the ruler of scania before his conquest made him king of Sweden, Denmark and so on, we can presume that he was scanian and NOT danish nor swedish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.230.139.182 (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I pretty much think it was the other way round. It seem quite true, that Scania was an independent kingdom at the time of Ivar Vidfadme, but this also applies for all the other parts of the later Danish Kingdom, that they until around the time of Ivar were independent Kingdoms. It wasn't "Denmark" that conquered Scania, it was Scania/Ivar that conquered Denmark, and since the time of Ivar it seem to be normal to regard the Danish kingdoms as an unity now ruled by a single king, and it's well documented in the Frankish Annals that Osfrid 'de Sconaowe' was a part of the Danish delegation in the year 811. So of course Ivar was Scanian, but if the people of Scania in the 7th century belonged to the Danish tribe, then it would be equally true to call Ivar and any other Scanian from that period for Danish. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 10:02, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In some sources he is described as coming from the Danish Lejre dynasty of the Skjoldungs, and as being king of Lejre. In that case he might have been a Danish king conquering the Scanian realm.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ivar = 2 persons

Ivar Vidamne is the son of Gudröd, king over Swede, Sealand and Saxland with sit in Sealand.

The Hversu Noregr byggðist and Njáls saga tells from Ivar "boneless", son of Harald, King of Northumbria (Danelag occupation) and Rogaland? in Norge (before). That myths play 100 years later. The myths say he is a son of Ragnar (a myths construction), but he is a son of harald of harald the gamle and he has a daughter with deep-mind.

The Myths remix Ivar of Scane and Ivar boneless, but real that are different peoples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.159.60.52 (talk) 17:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vidfavne

The suggested Danish name "Ivar Vidfadme" is incorrect. "Fadme" is not even a modern Danish word, "favne" on the other means "fathoms". All books in Danish I could find on google books use "Vidfavne".Here is a selection of sources that uses Vidfavne spanning from 1898 to 2013[1][2][3][4]·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Name Ivar Vidfadme isn't "suggested" but the official or common form of the name of Ivar used in Danish language for centuries. I wouldn't prevent anyone from using the form Ivar Vidfavne, but as an encyclopedia we shall reflect, what is the normal and historical used and accepted form of a name, and in Danish that is Ivar Vidfadme (whether Vidfadme gives an actual meaning or not is of lesser importance if the form in itself is accepted and the most commonly used).

The books you refer to is for the most of little importance, since no. 1 is in English and no. 3 & 4 are in Norwegian. Only book no. 2 is in Danish so I will admit, that there do exist Danish books with this nameform, but one or two 'random' books dosen't make a case, what I'm looking for, when judging what is the accepted and common Danish form of Ivar's name, is in particular, how the Old Nordic manuscripts have been translated into Danish through time, and also how Ivar is mentioned in printed Danish encyclopedias.

As for the Danish translations we can look at a few examples:

Snorri Sturlusons saga on the old Nordic kings was printed in 1633 and the translation to Danish was made by Peder Claussøn. In this edition of 'Snorres saga', called Snorre Sturlesøns Norske Kongers Chronica Udsat paa Dansk aff H. Peder Claussøn Ivar is mentioned several times and by the nameforms: Iwer Vidfadme, Iffuer Vidfadme & Ifuer den Vijdfadme.

C. C. Rafn translated Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar en mesta to Danish, and in his edition, Den store saga om Olaf Tryggvesøn (Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar en mesta) Paa Dansk ved C. C. Rafn, we read like this:

"Om Knud hin Fundne

61. Da Sigurd Ring, Ragnar Lodbroks Fader, var bleven Konge over Sverrig og Danmark, og havde tilvejebragt Fred i begge Riger, og sat Skattekonger og Jarler over dem, tænkte han paa det Rige, som hans Frænde Harald Hildetand, og før ham Ivar Vidfadme, ....."

C. C. Rafn also translated Af Upplendinga konungum, and in this edition, Om Oplændingernes Konger, Paa Dansk ved C. C. Rafn, we find it like this:

"1. Kapitel

Olaf, en søn af den svenske Kong Ingjald Ildraade, opdyrkede det skovbegroede Vermeland; derfor blev han kaldt Olaf Trætelge. Han var opfødt i Vester-Gotland hos en mand, som hed Bove. Dennes Søn hed Saxe, med Tilnavn Fletter. Olafs Moder var Gautild hin Prude, en Datter af Kong Algaute, hvis Fader var Gautrek hin Milde, en Søn af Gaut, efter hvem Gautland eller Gotland er opkaldt. Gautilds Moder var Aløf, en Datter af Kong Olaf Skarpøie af Nærike. Men da Ivar Vidfadme havde underlagt sig hele de Danskes Rige og Sverrig, ....."

G. Thorarensen translated Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, and in his edition, Sagaen om Hervarar og Kong Heidrek, Oversat af G. Thorarensen, we read:

"16. Angantyr var en lang Tid Konge i Reidgotland; han var en mægtig Konge og meget rig,

......

Men Harald Hildetand lod sig give Kongenavn i Gøtland , hvorpaa han underlagde sig alle de før nævnte Riger, som Kong Ivar hin vidfadme før havde besiddet."

The most thorough Danish version of Skjöldunga saga is the book published in 1984 with the title: "Skjoldungernes saga", redaktion og tekstoversættelse af Claus Lund og Karsten Friis-Jensen - and also in this book, the form of the name used is Ivar Vidfadme.

As for Danish encyclopedias, then Salmonsens Konversationsleksikon, 2nd edition (1915-1930) is the most comprehensive and authoritative we have in the Danish language and here we also encounters Ivar in the form of Ivar Vidfadme - Ivar Vidfadme in: Salmonsens Konversations Leksikon, Anden Udgave, Bind XII (1922), p. 731 & p. 732

So even if you could find a few examples in genuine Danish language (not Norwegian or other neighbouring languages) of the form Ivar Vidfavne then we can't look aside, that Ivar Vidfadme is the most commonly used Danish form of the name of this king.

In the national register of material in the Danish libraries we find 3 books that references to the name Ivar Vidfadme but we find none, that refers to the name Ivar Vidfavne.

But I can see, that Ivar Vidfavne is used to some extent as a modern nameversion of Ívarr inn víðfaðmi in Norwegian and Danish, so I think we could add this fact to the article - after we have mentioned Ivar Vidfadme as the 'official' Danish form of the name. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 19:58, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It strikes me as very silly to maintain an antiquated translation of the name that is not intelligible to speakers of modern Danish - in Danish there is no word fadme and there has not been for centuries, the version vidfavne on the other hand is a direct translation into modern Danish of the original names and it gives the correct meaning of "en der favner vidt". But I am not going to spend more energy argueing with you over this.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:12, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

vidfame

Vidfame 😉 92.96.96.13 (talk) 08:43, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]