Talk:Tourtière

Etymology

according to the most reliable sources, older French Quebecers La Tourte was what they called the pigeon and the pie was named after the bird that was used almost exclusively until it was extinct due to over killing. Pie was not named after the dish it was the dish that was named after the pie. If the dish was to be named after the pie in general it would be Tarte-iere, Moule a Tarte ora Pie Pan. There is an obvious difference between Tarte-Pie and Tourte-Pigeon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carletonite (talk • contribs) 03:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Passenger pigeon pie

The bit about "tourte" being an extinct animal seems to me like a joke. As far as I know, "tourte" just means "tart". Can anybody verify? --PeterNesbitt 21:43, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's actually true... the scientific name of that bird (a tourte) is the ectopistes migratorius.

-- Sourcecode 04:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wow, you learn something new every day. Thanks for setting me straight, Sourcecode. --PeterNesbitt 19:15, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ectopistes migratorius is the passenger pigeon, aka pigeon migratoire, colombe voyageuse or (in Canada at least) tourte (voyageuse). But there's no reason to think that that has anything to do with the "pie" sense of the word tourte, which is from Latin torta, a round loaf. The pigeon sense is presumably to do with Latin turtur, turtle dove. So I've removed the puzzling note about the extinct bird. Flapdragon 23:25, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, tourte was used in tourtière before it became extinct. In fact, it is believed overhunting was the cause of the bird's disappearance. The tourte was then replaced by beef or pork. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.167.181.29 (talk • contribs) , at 02:43, 14 December 2005

That may or may not be true but my point was that the name of the dish does not come from the bird as was implied, since the two words are unrelated. Flapdragon 02:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It IS true. 69.9.97.207 (talk)

The text needs some reorganisation here. The 1st paragraph says the lac-st-jean tourtière is called pâté à la viande then there is section talking about the lac-st-jean tourtière. which is it?

There is no need to list every canadian province. Saying that it is a traditional dish of most french canadians is clear enough (Lostkiwi 01:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC))

• So are there any reliable sources that suggest there is a connection between the pigeon and the pie? FunkMonk (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

FunkMonk, there are several detailed paragraphs on this talk page (few sections down) about this. There is also a reliable source (Casselman) on the article that explains the etymology of tourtiere: it is named after the pan in which it was cooked. There is also an external link on the article that debunks the pigeon/pie belief (CBC-tourtiere debate). The relationship between "tourte" (the pigeon) and tourtiere is a fanciful invention suggested by the similarity of the words (i.e., a false etymology). Richigi (talk) 19:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, because what I needed is a reliable source that specifically debunks this claim, so I can use it on the passenger pigeon page. The most specific one was "Cooksinfo" mentioned on this page, but I don't know if that passes FAC... FunkMonk (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Why I put the subsection back.

(Forgive the lack of accents but pointing and clicking is a pain)

OK, the thing about "regular" tourtiere and tourtiere du lac is that ther latter isn't a variation of the former, it's a completely different thing. What most of the province calls tourtiere is also served in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean at Xmas next to some turkey and cranberry sauce, it's just called "pate a la viande" instead. This distinction needs mention because otherwise one would be led to believe that the shallow pie filled with ground pork and veal does not exist in the Saguenay and is replaced by the deep dish pie with diced meat and potatoes, which is not the case.--70.81.13.192 15:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It is my understanding, from folks who were born and/or lived around the Lac St-Jean area, that the meat pie that is a regional specialty is called 'ci-paille', not tourtiere. Grandma Roses 20:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Cipaille is a different (but similar) thing, that, as far as I know, is specifically layered (meat and potatoes). It appears to be a regional speciality but it is also slowly falling into obscurity, while tourtière (du Saguenay, du Lac St-Jean) is as popular as ever. But the point is that no Saguenéen or Jeannois would ever call the ground pork/ground veal shallow pie tourtière, and that everyone in Québec knows about tourtière du Lac-St-Jean, at least in name (while no other regional recipes either the shallow pie or deep dish pie have such widespread reputation).--Boffob 05:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Debate re: origin of word 'tourtiere' (continued)

Cooksinfo.com, in their article "Tourtiere," states that it is a myth that tourtiere is so named because the original ingredient was pigeon. This appears to have been a fanciful invention of the early 20th century based on the similarity of the name with the French word for dove/pigeon (tourterelle, possibly tourte in Quebecois). Tourtiere is actually the name of the (apparently now obsolete) vessel in which the dish was cooked. The practice of naming dishes after, well, dishes, is well-attested. Since cooksinfo.com is a reliable source, the explanation entirely plausible, and no source reliable or otherwise is given for the alternate explanation, I am revising the sentence in the WP article accordingly. Richigi (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

RichIgil: the Etymology section of the Passerger Pigeon article here on Wikipedia claims unequivocally that Tourtierre is named due to "tourtes" being a key ingredient. One or both of these articles obviously need to be changed. Its fine to agree that the dish is currently named after the vessel, it is likely true whether the vessel was itself named after the pigeons cooked in it, or after Latin "torta"/loaves as predicted by Flapdragon above. The question is why the Tourtierre pan is called that, and so far no one has brought solid evidence. If it is named after the Passenger Pigeon then it's certainly worth including that fact as its a poignant example of how our traditions can destroy their own materials. I think at minimum the alternate theory is worth mentioning here, though likely the Passenger Pigeon article should alto be edited to indicate the controversy. Jeremyclarke (talk • contribs) 21:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Geez the wiktionary entries are very interesting on the subject of tourtière etymology. The English definition of tourtière Specifically and only mentions the Passenger Pigeon explanation, claiming the word derives from "tourte" which they say comes from The Latin word "turtur" which is derived from imitation of the sound turtle doves make. The French definition of tourtière agrees that the word is derived from "tourte" but makes no claim about why, just links to the tourte article. The tourte article in both languages claims two distinct etymologies of the same word, one for the pigeon-sound onomatopoeia and the other from Latin torta/bread. Overall this explains the complexity of the situation, as the double-etymology of tourte makes it much harder to know exactly how the meat pie and/or it's vessel we're named. IMHO the wiktionary articles raise enough etymological doubt that this short article on meat pie has room to explain both possibilities for how tourtière was named.Jeremyclarke (talk)

Jeremy (and other philologists), etymology is definitely a tangled skein to unravel! However, I would like to point out (sympathetically because I too am a lover of words and word origins) that a reliably sourced statement is called for in an encyclopedia article. The source I cited is reliable and easily verified (since it's an online source), whereas no source is given for the "pigeon" origin beyond speculation and personal feelings of the generous contributors. In fact, my source debunks that origin. (Jeremy, it kind of sounds like you did not check out my source!) Wiktionary, while a good starting-place, is scarcely a final word on etymology - unless the wikt. entry is sourced reliably. In short, to support the "pigeon" origin, a reliable non-wp source is in order.

The Passenger Pigeon wp article does cite a reference for its information regarding tourtiere, but it's not a particularly reliable source, certainly not a scholarly one. I suppose a rewrite of this article with respect to etymology could be done, citing both scholarly and less-so sources. As for the Passenger Pigeon article, does the inclusion of tourtiere etymology really add anything to it? I would take it out altogether before pulling it into the discussion which rightly belongs on this page.

Anyway, to do my part, and in the interest of integrity (after all, I call myself Richigi), I will conduct further research and try to get back here with additional reliable sources, for either side of the question as the case may be. Wish me happy hunting! Richigi (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Update. Just for the record, and for future discussions, the word "tourtière" meaning a round covered vessel for cooking — and sometimes serving — pie predates the word "tourtière" meaning the Quebecois specialty. Earliest source I have found so far is Le cuisinier françois (1651) with 5 references to cooking in a tourtière (the recipe for pigeon pie found therein is called tourte de pigeonneaux). There are numerous other sources, many predating the settlement of New France. Also, "tourte" or "torte" meaning a round sort of bread is attested from at least the 13th c. (Godefroy). By the 17th c. (probably earlier) it also means a sort of round pie, and frequently a pie made in a tourtière.

All this is pretty much OR, nor does it particularly belong in the article, since it's only providing support for why tourtiére (the vessel) is not named after a pigeon. I mention it here on the talk page just to supplement the debate. Anyone who wishes to read what I've read, and who can muddle through 17th/18th c. French, can search tourtiere on http://gallica.bnf.fr (the Bibliotheque nationale de France). An array of French etymological dictionaries can also be viewed there, most with an entry tracing the origin of "tourte" the food to the Late Latin "torta." Richigi (talk) 18:02, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

My last entry for this topic, I promise. I finally found an online source with etymological credibility for the origin of the word tourtière, and plugged it into the article. It was thanks to Jeremyclarke's research, actually, that I tracked it down, so thanks Jeremy! Let me also point out that Jeremy found an excellent article that relates the history of cipaille and tourtière (here: http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-454/Lac-Saint-Jean_%C2%ABTourti%C3%A8re%C2%BB.html%7C). Anyone who wishes to expand or improve this article would do well to consult that information.Richigi (talk) 19:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

This whole article is wrong.

It's time to put an end to the widespread misconception that tourtière is meat pie and meat pie is tourtière. Give back the voluminous dish that includes major ingredients that are not meat its rightful name of TOURTIÈRE and let the seasoned meat pies be called MEAT PIES. They are two very different dishes. You should take example from the French version of this article.70.40.131.78 (talk) 17:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

This article is about the Canadian dish. The French WP article on Tourtiere du Lac-Saint-Jean clearly describes it as a meat and potato pie--same as this article. It further gives a variant called Bas-Saint-Laurent that calls for veal, pork, and beef but gives no further ingredients. Perhaps you are suggesting additional articles, as on French WP; i.e., Tourtiere (Limousin) and Tourtiere (Gascogne)? Richigi (talk) 01:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I am from this region, and I can confirm that both of you are right, and also wrong, isn't that fantastic? There are four different meals that are frequently mixed up. There is the tourtière, which does not exist anymore. It was a peasant dish, made with passenger pigeons, now extinct. It was replaced by the tourtière du Lac St-Jean, a deep dish pie, served with diced meat, often game birds or pork, or even chicken, but it also includes a variety of veggies, depending on the traditional familial recipe. There is also the meat pie, called in french the pâté à la viande, which is a shallow dish pie made with grounded beef or pork. Last but not least, the cipaille is the meat and potatoes, often layered version of the deep dish pie. Some people also make a shallow dish version of it. Dive83 (talk) 19:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Image of Xmas Tourtiere undone

A nice image was added by Victoriaedwards, but the article is really way too short right now to support more images (I blame the infoboxes). Anyway, I undid it. It's still in the Commons cat on tourtiere (which is linked to the article). The article could easily be longer, and I can think of no objection to adding the image back in when the length of the article should support it. If some editor really thinks it should be in, I invite them to try adding it without making the rest of the article's format look awful. Richigi (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

reference 11 doesn’t exist any more

reference 11 doesn’t exist any more 167.248.179.197 (talk) 18:29, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@167.248.179.197: thank you for pointing out the error! The reference does still exist, the page just moved. I have updated the reference. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 17:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The spices used in tourtière

The article says tourtière is seasoned with cinnamon and cloves. Is it possible that instead of those two, the traditional spice for tourtière is actually allspice, possibly in conjunction with cinnamon and cloves?

Two reasons for thinking this might be the case:

1. Allspice is native to the Caribbean area and (one would expect) easier and cheaper to acquire than spices from Indonesia.

2. I once made a recipe for Starbucks-style "ginger molasses" cookies. The result was very close to the Starbucks version, but the taste was just a little off-target. I substituted ¼ tsp of ground allspice for the same amount of ground cinnamon, and all was well. I'm wondering if the cinnamon+clove direction was just a guess based on taste, when the right answer would have been cinnamon+clove+allspice.

Floozybackloves (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

From my lived experience and what I've read, allspice is an imported spice that is rarely used by anyone here, and it is not a traditional spice in French Canadian cuisine. So the traditional spice for tourtière is not allspice. But, it does sound cool that you say that allspice could potentially be used in tourtière to give it a slightly different flavour. I'd be open to trying it personally Safyrr 18:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)