Talk:Lebensraum

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lebensraum article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 90 days

Lebensraum was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (January 21, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 3, 2018.

Military history: European / German / World War II Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Start

This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	European military history task force
	German military history task force
	World War II task force

Politics High‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Germany High‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Italy Low‑importance

	Italy portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

European history High‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Meaning of Lebensraum

Nice greetings from Austria. This page is (nearly) complete out of date! Noone in Austria or Germany will connect "Lebensraum" with the Nazis any longer. Contrary, "Lebensraum" is currently a very significant and positive word and aspect of everybodies life. Also the description in the "German Loan Words" page is not complete, it is much more than that.

"Lebensraum" means the following: Everything that is around us, the streets, the trees, the entire nature itself, friends, family, foes, strangers at the one hand. Furthermore the politics, communes, TV, Media, communities, counties, and many many more. The "Lebensraum" is every place I visit regularly or sporadic, but although a place where one can meet "me" by chance. Lebensraum is connected with oneself here in Austria. The "Lebensraum" of every person is a little bit different, also if both people are twins and live in the same house.

In one sentence: "Lebensraum" is the place we live in, namely in the furthermost possible interpretation.

Yours sincerely with best greets from the "Green Styria" (where Schwarzenegger comes from)

Chris

Blackware1980 (talk) 21:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can not fully agree, the term 'Lebensraum im Osten' (living space in the east) is still connected to the Nazi propaganda and got for example an article in the german wikipedia. But you are right, that the word 'Lebensraum' (living space) by itself have mostly a non political meaning. Therefore I suggest to rename the article in 'Lebensraum im Osten'.--Flegmon (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind this is the English language wikipedia. When used in English, the word Lebensraum definitely has a political meaning. It can still be useful to mention its contemporary meaning in German-speaking countries. Daniel Bonniot de Ruisselet (talk) 06:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted an edit recently by the new editor Zottelje regarding the meaning of the term. Their reply was placed above and I have moved it to here because this seems to be a better location. It continues a small discussion that is old but better to continue I think than to open a new section. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because my edit just got reverted, lets dicsuss here and find a consensus. I agree that the article should discuss the current meaning of the Word in the english language. However, I have a few points I addressed, which I think should enter the article:

(a) "Living space" is the literal translation, "Habitat" the correct current one, why not mention that?

(b) starting with present tense suggests this is still the meaning of the Word in german. Why not use past tense :::(as also the rest of the article)?

(c) A very breef mentioning of the current use in german language does not deter from the main content, but simply states a correct fact about the term.

(d) Furthermore, it can be very helpfull for readers who read computer-translated texts that missed the correct translation of Lebensraum.

See my reverted edit for my suggestion how to solve these issues, and state your counterarguments. In particular, I dont understand why my suggestion under "contemporary use" was reverted.

Zottelje (talk) 11:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The intention of the article, and what is notable is the concept of eastward German expansion. The word in German might have another meaning but that is not really relevant. If the other meaning is used in English to the level that also makes it notable, we could have a new article about that other word. The title of the new article would have to be different so as to separate it from this article. Notability is determined by use in secondary sources. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

lebensraum contemporary section

I have taken out the country specific subsections and rephrased the sentence so that it appears more generic and neutrally. They are too short to be by themself and i do not think that it helps by singling out countires in this way especially on an article like this. also the paragraphs are written like it is personal stuff not objective like in a wikipedia voice. maybe if we can get discussion here first before putting them in it will be better but for now i think just listing the country with sources in generic description, non-paragraph way is much better. sorry if the english is not good it is not my first language! Waskerton (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I removed all mention of contemporary "analogies" (how awful) - clearly only added by those wishing to make a rhetorical/political/nationalist point - and left only those that have direct relevance to the Axis powers of WWII (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and the Empire of Japan). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:5808:D56:0:2492:2A2A:2420:3C78 (talk) 19:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of your agreement, you may not edit material related to the Arab-Israeli topic area per WP:A/I/PIA. nableezy - 20:13, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

land without a people see also

The phrase "a land without a people for a people without a land" has been compared to the concept of Lebensraum in any number of sources. For example:

Yacobi, Haim (2017). Constructing a Sense of Place: Architecture and the Zionist Discourse. Design and the Built Environment. Taylor & Francis. p. 91. ISBN 978-1-351-94933-0. Retrieved 2022-04-20. The justification for such misuse of localist concepts was the supposed shortage of living space (Lebensraem), created by the fact that Germane - unlike the colonial empires that dominated a 'world of empty spaces' - was a 'space-less country'. (Such horrific imagery of voids and spaceless-ness is invoked in slogans of certain Zionist circles who propagated the notion of 'land without people' for a 'people without a land')

As such, this merits a see also, if not further expansion in the article. nableezy - 22:42, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is time to create new See links and topic

Putin trying to create new Lebenraum for Russian people.

Old sentence "Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe"

well match to new topic with content like that

"Following Putin's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the Russian territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe" it can be referenced with "Duginisim". 83.23.23.233 (talk) 11:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA status

From a grammatical glance, this looks solid. Subsections look watertight. I think this could be a GA soon. Electricmaster (talk) 19:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is the new "Prussian Policy" section sound? Does it lack issues or SYNTH in your view? OldPolandUpdates (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]