Talk:Billie Holiday

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hszylit.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Wither" and "damaged" — not neutral

Non-neutral POV, a particular stance on controversial matter of opinion presented as simple universal truth. For example, some feel Holiday's voice became more expressive with age. It is very controversial to make flat statements of fact about aesthetic matters. While it is objectively true that age and health deterioration affected some aspects of her singing negatively, the article appears to strongly imply that she became a worse musician. The reality is that some listeners actually like later Holiday as much as earlier Holiday or even more. Are they wrong? Who is to say — the universal arbiter of art? There is no such thing. More critics may have disliked later Holiday but that speaks only to what a professional critic of her time is likely to have preferred. Professional critics are just one form of critic; they are not universal arbiters of art, no matter how much they or others may believe they are. The article should be revised to not flatly present Holiday's singing as something that simply got worse over time. That is just one point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.216.159.64 (talk) 00:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Birth place

Most reliable sources give her place of birth as Philadelphia, not Baltimore. Specifically, Eagle and LeBlanc, Blues: A Regional Experience (aka BARE) gives it as Philadelphia General Hospital. The website https://explorepahistory.com/ states: "Billie Holiday was born in Philadelphia, but only by the circumstance that Holiday's mother had gotten pregnant out of wedlock. After being put out of her parents' home in Baltimore, she went to Philadelphia to give birth, then returned to Baltimore to raise her baby girl." Family trees on sites like Ancestry.com are user-generated and not regarded as reliable sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

First sentence always identifies nationality, not race or ethnicity.

It should simply identify her as American but it keeps being changed.SMTWTFS (talk) 03:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)SMTWTFS

Please read MOS:ETHNICITY very carefully. "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Holiday is considered an icon of the African-American experience, and in that sense it is relevant to her notability. Unlike most biographical articles, removing this characteristic from the lead of this article appears to discount her contributions to American black culture and her unique place in that culture. Please don't edit war over this content. General Ization ^Talk 03:14, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Billie Holiday was an icon and African American is appropriate...Modernist (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, read it carefully. It is not "relevant to the subject's notability" as that is not the reason why she is well known. Of course she is an icon of the African-American experience but that is already spoken about in the rest of the article and saying that it discounts her contributions is pretty ridiculous. If anything, what it appears to do is limit and box her as a person into her ethnicity. Arbitrarily choosing who to bend this rule that is uniform across all of wikipedia over who someone decides is an "icon" or not doesn't work.

What can be done is add something saying "She is considered an icon of the African-American experience" somewhere in the first paragraphSMTWTFS (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2019 (UTC)SMTWTFS

I don't see that your proposed re-write is a real improvement, sorry. I think that her African-American ethnicity did contribute to her notability. Why is this "limiting and boxing"? It's a fact. She was still a musical genius. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

The sentence could simply read "Eleanora Fagan (April 7, 1915 – July 17, 1959), better known as Billie Holiday, was a jazz singer with a career spanning nearly thirty years." The term "African-American" is not as important to her notability as her being a jazz singer because she had international fame. Bus stop (talk) 19:46, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

OK, I have no huge opinion one way or the other. One hopes that most readers make it past the first sentence. But a reminder that the article says this (my emphasis added):

"Holiday was hired by Artie Shaw a month after being fired from the Count Basie Band. This association placed her among the first black women to work with a white orchestra, an unusual arrangement at that time. This was also the first time a black female singer employed full-time toured the segregated U.S. South with a white bandleader.".

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, it's something that's already talked about in the article. Her struggle and fight for a more equal and desegregated America, along with all the civil rights leaders, was not so someone could label her again. SMTWTFS (talk) 23:13, 28 December 2019 (UTC)SMTWTFS

Hmm. There seems to be something of a logical contradiction in your argument here. The one defining characteristic, that was the basis for "her struggle and fight for a more equal and desegregated America", we're no longer allowed to mention in the first sentence? This seems to be, ironically, self-defeating WP:RGW? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:31, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

We should omit both terms from the opening sentence and re-write the second sentence to include this information. Thus the whole first paragraph could read: Eleanora Fagan (April 7, 1915 – July 17, 1959), better known as Billie Holiday, was a jazz singer with a career spanning nearly thirty years. An African American, "Lady Day", as she was nicknamed by her music partner Lester Young, had a seminal influence on jazz music and pop singing. Her vocal style, strongly inspired by jazz instrumentalists, pioneered a new way of manipulating phrasing and tempo. She was known for her vocal delivery and improvisational skills. Bus stop (talk) 00:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Martinevans123 has it exactly right. Try to talk about "Strange Fruit" without talking about the African-American experience in the first line. Bus stop, I'm sorry, but "An African-American, ..."--just preceding a real sentence with an appositive as if it were an afterthought that just happened to be placed initially, is wooden writing and not appropriate here.

I don't know where this whole "nationality comes first" comes from, but it's a fetish and should be disregarded, and here it is equivalent to whitewashing. I just wrote up Jacob ben Abraham Zaddiq, who was a Dutch Jewish engraver of Portuguese descent. SMTWTFS, go figure out nationality, if you can (you can't), and it doesn't matter. Drmies (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

There are other formulations. We can avoid my "wooden writing". SMTWTFS is arguing that it limits and boxes her in. I think this is a valid, if subtle, point. "Pigeonhole", my term, is to unfairly think of or describe (someone or something) as belonging to a particular group, having only a particular skill, etc. Identities, such as ethnic, religious, even national, tend to do this. As she is a jazz singer, the identity of African American can be limiting, and can wait for the second sentence.

Why should we box her in, in the very first sentence, as an "African American"? Are we prioritizing identity over skill? It is unnecessary that we do this, and we can avoid it. And we can more accurately depict the subject of the article in the first sentence of the article. The first sentence of the lede is arguably the most important sentence of the article. Is the subject of the article firstly a jazz singer or firstly an African American? I would argue the subject of the article is firstly a jazz singer.

When we write about the 17th century (Jacob ben Abraham Zaddiq) we can pack a first sentence of an article with several applicable facts—Dutch, Jewish, of Portuguese descent. We are not pigeonholing because there are no known implications of those factors, at least not to me. But we know the recent history of the United States can be fraught with implications concerning identity and how art may intersect with identity. Indeed jazz finds itself at such an intersection. Do we see jazz as merely an artifact of and subservient to a moment in America's history? I would argue "no", we see jazz as having an intrinsic value separate from a moment in history. I think we find the significance of jazz absolutely fathomless. We show our appreciation for jazz by not from the outset describing a foremost practitioner of that art style as an "African American".

Can we consider this: Eleanora Fagan (April 7, 1915 – July 17, 1959), better known as Billie Holiday, was a jazz singer with a career spanning nearly thirty years. She was African American and nicknamed "Lady Day" by her friend and music partner Lester Young. Holiday had a seminal influence on jazz music and pop singing. Her vocal style, strongly inspired by jazz instrumentalists, pioneered a new way of manipulating phrasing and tempo. She was known for her vocal delivery and improvisational skills. Bus stop (talk) 00:41, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, I am only talking about the first sentence. I understand and agree that her experience and ethnicity are important to her work, but not as an introduction to a person. Imagine referring to Barack Obama as the African-American president of the United States and how disrespectful that is. The rest of the article and every article relating to this, including her songs, should definitely go more in depth. I didn't make this point to "whitewash" her life, I don't even see how you could say that, as I am not proposing anything incorrect. This is only to follow the uniform format Wikipedia has. Also, this is very specific to the context within America's history and internal struggles, when in a global sense they're all American and this is a global website.

How about: Eleanora Fagan (April 7, 1915 – July 17, 1959), better known as Billie Holiday, was an American jazz singer with a career spanning nearly thirty years. Nicknamed "Lady Day" by her friend and music partner Lester Young, Holiday is considered an icon of the African-American experience and had a seminal influence on jazz music and pop singing. Her vocal style, strongly inspired by jazz instrumentalists, pioneered a new way of manipulating phrasing and tempo. She was known for her vocal delivery and improvisational skills. SMTWTFS (talk) 02:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)SMTWTFS

One problem is the word "American" appears twice. Bus stop (talk) 03:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

What on earth have you gained by leaving out "African-" from the opening sentence? Why is it somehow essential that she is "American", and how is that more important than "African-American"? Drmies (talk) 03:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

That is not a problem at all. One is about her nationality, which is what the opening sentence is always about. The other is about her ethnicity within The United States of America. How is it not essential if that is where she was from? I understand that you and others don't think it is for some reason but what I don't understand is why what you think should get in the way of this article being correct. Remember, this is a global encyclopedia, not your personal essay. It's not about how you feel. What I said is very simple and follows the structure of Wikipedia. Anyway, I'm not going to change it. I'll let you and others continue the conversation. SMTWTFS (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2019 (UTC)SMTWTFS

Why the word "American" twice? I understand you when you say "One is about her nationality...The other is about her ethnicity", but when one uses the phrase "African American" it is only necessary to use the word "American" once. Did you disagree with my suggestion above? I will post it again:

Eleanora Fagan (April 7, 1915 – July 17, 1959), better known as Billie Holiday, was a jazz singer with a career spanning nearly thirty years. She was African American and nicknamed "Lady Day" by her friend and music partner Lester Young. Holiday had a seminal influence on jazz music and pop singing. Her vocal style, strongly inspired by jazz instrumentalists, pioneered a new way of manipulating phrasing and tempo. She was known for her vocal delivery and improvisational skills. Bus stop (talk) 04:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

impossible timeline

Under the section "Lady Sings the Blues," at the beginning of the next-to-last paragraph, it says that five years later, Billie went to Europe, in 1959. But, at the end of the previous paragraph, it says that she and her friend were both in the last two years of their lives, and that he died in March 1959. That would indicate that Billie went to Europe three years after her death, and that 1959 is five years after 1959! I would recommend leaving off the phrase "five years later," and just say that afterwards Billie went to Europe. Try something like this: "When Holiday returned to Europe later in 1959, she made one of her last television appearances...."

The real Dr. Ann (talk) 16:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by The real Dr. Ann (talk • contribs)

Why no mention of The United States vs. Billie Holiday?

There's even a page for it.

I'm not very good at writing, but came here to read about it and found nothing. Not even in the section for Strange Fruit.2603:8000:2942:4A00:FD32:6BDF:1C63:ED3A (talk) 00:23, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

What if there was a "Depictions in popular culture" section? 2603:8000:2942:4A00:F119:72F6:C656:9C8B (talk) 22:31, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

It's mentioned and linked, with a source, in the "Death and legacy" sub-section. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

This is the most valid question, I wrote a response to that, talking about her heroin addiction and how horrible she was treated even though she was so so talented, and I'm not the best writer either. I'm so happy to see that I'm not the only one who thought this was something to bring up and not ignore. " The united states'vs Billie holiday" is an amazing title of this particular point in her life. Have you read the book " chasing the scream."? That's where I got my information from. Where did you get yours? My email is katherinekatherine8@icloud.com. ok thank you AliciaBLMRainbowDaisy (talk) 06:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Billie Holiday Statue (1985; James Earl Reid, sculptor), Pennsylvania Avenue and W. Lafayette Avenue, Baltimore, MD 21217 (26388939557).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

FBI's attempts to ensnare Holiday in a drug sting?

Hmmm... I'm surprised to see Hollywood has a true story film United States vs. Billie Holiday, which details the FBI's attempts to ensnare Holiday in a drug sting to discredit her, but Holiday's wiki article does not mention it. I think this wiki article is missing some details about the investigation that lead to her arrest.

Jeffrey Walton (talk) 07:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The Federal Bureau targeted her for singing blood on leaves.

The Federal Bureau targeted her for singing blood on leaves. Tell the truth about the Racist practices of The Federal Bureau of Narcotics commissioner Harry Anslinger. 2601:3C6:4280:8FE0:10DF:3B70:6239:822C (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The article says: "According to writer and journalist Johann Hari, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics under Harry J. Anslinger, had been targeting Holiday since at least 1939, when she started to perform "Strange Fruit"." Are you disputing this? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The claim that the FBI under Harry J. Anslinger targeted her for singing this song is false and originates entirely from the film The United States vs. Billie Holiday which originates from a book by Johann Hari about the war on drugs. That book contains only a few pages about Holiday. This narrative literally didn't exist before. As noted here: The United States vs. Billie Holiday#Reception, jazz historians have called the premise of the film ahistorical and false, yet these claims are on this article and Harry J. Anslinger's and are all sourced Johann Hari, who has a history of fabrication, yet you won't find these claims in any serious biography about Billie Holiday. 78.146.9.21 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Billie Holiday's childhood was more than rough

Her childhood was more than just rough or hard or difficult. She developed early, and was gang raped by white men at the age of 13 , and was blamed for it because of how big her breasts were. She went to prison for 5 years on her first conviction for just being high on heroin and wasn't in possession, didn't sell it, and even took accountability. She even used heroin intravenously. She never understood why she needed it so bad, or knew why she wanted it. However, she took accountability for breaking the law. After her release from prison, she couldn't get an apartment. She was never able to get an apartment, even when she was releasing top selling records. The FBI chief was on a major witch hunt for her, a white man who wore a pin striped double breasted suit. Knowing what I know now about Billie Holiday, I ask myself ,"Who was her mother, great grandmother, and great grandma? Were they Slaves, and house workers?" Their daughter, grand daughter and great grand daughter was now a convict, in and out of prison her whole life because she needed heroin to self medicate. Would she have been as successful as she was if she didn't have heroin? I'm guessing probably not. She was a true vocal prodigy, and didn't deserve the criminal white supremacist man hunt she was unconstitutionally subjected to all her life. She was targeted because she was black even though she was exceedingly talented. Look at white vocalists of her time who did drugs. They didn't get the same persecution as she did. DO NOT UNDERSCORE THIS BLACK WOMAN'S TROUBLED UPBRINGING!!!! YES, she used her whole life, and was sober too, and she IS A STORY OF EXPERIENCE STRENGTH AND HOPE. BLACK LIVES MATTER. thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by AliciaBLMRainbowDaisy (talk • contribs) 06:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Significance: Featured in “Fallout” series of video games

Hello, as far as I know, this artist is most notable for several tracks appearing on Galaxy Radio in Fallout 3 and New Vegas Radio in Fallout: New Vegas. Otherwise I would never have heard of this artist and quite possibly too insignificant for a Wikipedia page. Good music but there are many unknowns in the music world. There should be some information and emphasis on this since 99% visiting the page will probably be curious Fallout players. 2406:3003:2001:2853:C486:C32A:B785:9BFA (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't rely on "as far as I know", for reasons you have amply demonstrated. How do you figure that 99% of visitors will be curious Fallout players? And if that's true, what extra information does this provide them? They won't be investigating the page to learn that several of her tracks appear in Fallout. _signed, Willondon (talk) 20:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

William you may conduct a study for yourself in the street, 90% of people will think you mean Billy Eilish, and 9% will think you mean Billy Idol. Of the remaining 1%, only a fraction will get the right person. These are most likely Fallout players. You cam disbelieve but when you try it you will see. Great music however, highly moving and underrated music. I am a fan because of Fallout. 2406:3003:2001:2853:C486:C32A:B785:9BFA (talk) 21:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

What a completely ridiculous argument. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no need to shoehorn in a reference to Fallout just because it used Billie Holiday's music. "99% visiting the page will probably be curious Fallout players" is a gross misrepresentation of her importance within music history. Snickerdoooodle (talk) 19:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)