Talk:Rhondda Cynon Taf

Merged info

Previously there was info about this place at Rhondda. It was eventually meged into this article. The history of this info is now at Talk:Rhondda Cynon Taff/Early history of Rhondda.--Commander Keane 04:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Education

I have corrected an entry for Hawthorn High School. Whoeever put down 25% GCSE pass rate must not have looked far as the correct figure in Estyn is 49%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.89.109 (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Name

If "Rhondda Cynon Taf" is the Welsh spelling, and "Rhondda Cynon Taff" the English, this page should be at "Rhondda Cynon Taff". Marnanel 21:46, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Morwen. :) Marnanel 04:01, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Rhondda Cynon Taf" is the correct name for the county (by now). See the link to the council's website: [1]. Gareth 14:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there any reason why this article should not be moved to 'Rhondda Cynon Taf', with all the 'Taff' spellings in the article changed? The official spelling changed years ago. Cheela 10 September 2006

Both versions are "correct": the council now uses the Welsh language version, but the name of the county borough has not been changed. Both names were listed in the Act that created the area.[2] Should the English language Wikipedia use the Welsh name when the English one is still valid, albeit abandoned? Dunno, maybe. What I do know is when someone kept changing the "Taff"s to "Taf"s it completely broke the page, with images and links getting messed up, so it needs to be done right.

By rights they should go the whole hog and call themselves Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, rather than picking and mixing... Lozleader 20:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that the original name had commas in it. has it been changed to remove the commas? when? etc. Morwen - Talk 22:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly, VoB has the name with semi-colons instead of commas [3] Lozleader 09:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm the use of the commas is inconsistent:

• they don't appear in this SI from 1998 [4],
• but they do in this one [5];
• commas in 1999 [6]
• no commas in 2000 [7],
• back again in 2002 [8]
• And here's one from 2006 with commas [9],
• and one without [10] (and still spelt Taff with 2 fs)

Lozleader 09:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Onthe other hand [11] from 2003 has "Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council" Lozleader 09:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Curious. Random SIs unrelated to the topic in hand probably aren't the best source for usage: it's not uncommon for one to go out without really having been checked, having severe errors, and have to be amended by another SI. Minor errors just will get through. googling site:news.bbc.co.uk I get far more 'Taff' than 'Taf' - but googling site:bbc.co.uk/wales I get more 'Taf'. I suggest we keep it where it is for the moment, but keep an eye on matters to see whether the single-f version takes off in English. Morwen - Talk 10:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all those who responded to my original query above. Several Welsh unitary authorities have changed their name from that given to them in the 1996 legislation referenced above. Ceredigion, Conwy, and Gwynedd were named Cardiganshire, Aberconwy & Colwyn, and Caernarfonshire & Merionethshire respectively. In all cases the Wiki articles on them use the names used by the local authorities today - the 1996 names are barely mentioned as such (notwithstanding that the components of the names e.g. Colwyn have had other uses). Over the border a similar thing is seen with e.g. North Somerset which was created as North West Somerset, and this latter name is not mentioned in its Wiki article.

Therefore, for consistency this article should be under 'Rhondda Cynon Taf'. Whatever the council area is known as in Welsh, and the fact that the River Taff itself is usually spelt with two 'f's are not relevant here. I would recommend that this article be so changed, though I'm not going to do this myself. Cheela 19:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What we don't have (which makes it different from the other districts) is any statutory basis or date for the change. I suppose you could call the article Rhondda Cynon Taf and redirect from Rhondda Cynon Taff... The opening paragraph ought to point out that the council currently uses the Welsh spelling, although the other one is still current. There's nothing to stop the councillors from using the English spelling tommorrow if they want to. Don't know what to do about the commas: Redirect pages at Rhondda, Cynon, Taff (oh look, that's a blue link, must be already there) and Rhondda, Cynon,Taf? Perhaps someone ought to e-mail the council to get the minutes where they chose to stop using the English name? Lozleader 21:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but yes, all these name changes were done under section whatever of the Local Government Act 1972 and we have their date. In this case, where official and common usage are with the two-f version, I don't see that we should follow the council's example.

As to North Somerset - yes that is an ommission the plan was originally to rename Woodspring as North West Somerset on April 1, 1996. According to [12] the name of the county of North West Somerset was changed to North Somerset on June 28, 2005 - apparently the name of the district had been changed before. Anyway, this is getting rather besides the point. Morwen - Talk 21:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The "which spelling to use" thing crops up all over the Welsh council and town articles: I remember creating Y Faenol and logging in to find it had moved to Vaynol one day. Recently it has been bubbling along at Aberdyfi and brought up at WP:WWNB: see Wikipedia talk:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board#Opinions sought on naming conventions. I am a bit wary about using government acts as the ultimate authority for names: any narrow gauge fan will tell you that the Ffestiniog Railway is spelt "Festiniog" under the act creating it. Telsa (talk) 07:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW there was a public notice in a newspaper the other day that had a council logo with both names on it! Owain (talk) 08:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd hazard that by now, given the across the board usage of "Rhondda Cynon Taf", it's high time for this Wikipedia article to be rebranded, dropping the extra "f" from "Taff". Currently, it seems that certain editors are clinging to a nonsensical 'historical' arguement. The name of the county borough is "Rhondda Cynon Taf" (pronounced "Tarv" in Welsh and "Taph" in English). Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 15:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Monkeynits2008, that the council now uses Rhondda Cynon Taf as their name across the board. I dont know if it's any consilation but even the councils tourism website, which as you can probably guess is informing foreigners that the Name is Rhondda Cynon TaF. All the welcome signs say Taf as well as letter heads and council tax bills. --Glenny127 (talk) 23:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

All references to Rhondda Cynon Taff were amended and moved to Rhondda Cynon Taf today, but FruitMonkey took it upon him/herself to undo all changes. I'm at a loss as to his/her reasons for this. It's plain to see that the "Taff" suffix is no longer in use in Council literature, Media or ever street signage. Quite what FruitMonkey's motives are for this, I do not yet know... but it should be good!--Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 19:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

A late addition to a closed debate admittedly but why do some people consider "Rhondda Cynon Taff" as English when it means nothing in the English language and "Rhondda Cynon Taf" as Welsh. Welsh people, and I suppose others alike, would recognise them both as being Welsh anyway and the sensible thing was to use one version only. There are many other examples across Wales too where some Anglo influence has made perhaps a nonsense of the Welsh word(s) but it still means nothing in English either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.204.196 (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Rhondda Cynon Taff arms.png

Image:Rhondda Cynon Taff arms.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Question regarding the use of these arms. These are ceremonial, correct? Yet the "dragon" logo seen so often on Rhondda Cynon Taf stationery isn't listed. Should we also include said dragon?--84.13.252.83 (talk) 20:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

School league table

I removed the 'league table' of school results because Estyn doesn't inspect schools annually, so the exam results cited won't necessarily be directly comparable. People may be aware that since 2001, the Assembly Government hasn't published individual school performance information.[13] Information on individual schools is still available in prospectuses and governors’ annual reports, but adding them all together to produce a local league table may violate WP:SYNTH. Pondle (talk) 23:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested Move (Renaming debate for RCT)

First off, lets have a proper subdivision rather than discussing this under the Education heading. I have no agenda on the naming front (can't even think of one), but this article has been around for several years in its current form. As there has been a discussion regarding the naming convention, it's best that we do this right if we are to move it. Allow everyone to have their say, and therefore prevent it being moved in future, otherwise it will get punched around forever and a day. Everyone calls the All Blacks the All Blacks, even themselves; but not on Wikipedia, the consensus was the far snappier New Zealand national rugby union team (and rightly so). We just need to be correct... and then the person that moves it can repair the 360 disambiguation links after it. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, as I have stated before, as a matter of habbit, I always type in "Rhondda Cynon Taf". It is the correct name. Everything to do with the Borough: the signage, council tax bills and letters and say 'Taf', and I can't see why this article doesn't reflect this. --Glenny127 (talk) 23:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Council's website at [14] is perfectly plain. They use Rhondda Cynon Taf. In those circumstances, we should treat this like Porthmadog, Conwy or Caernarfon as an area that has changed its name officially to the Welsh version, and go ahead with the move. The 360 disambiguation links is not really a problem as a bot will sort out those. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

As I've repeated numerous times, the name of the county borough is "Rhondda Cynon Taf" - that's quite clear to everyone. "Rhondda Cynon Taf" is used in ALL council literature, on ALL council media, and in ALL council minutes. It's used at schools, colleges, universities, by the Royal Mail, by HMO Stationery Office, by Ordnance Survey... I think it's about time Wikipedia stopped lagging behind and "got with the programme".--Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 07:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, everyone needs to bear in mind that it's not so much an "English and Welsh" issue, Taf (like Taff) is pronounced Taph in English, while Taf is pronounced Tarv in Welsh. The ongoing argument and repeated changes to the Wiki are moot.--Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with renaming to Taf. It's like Llandaf railway station in Llandaff, Cardiff. Welshleprechaun (talk) 00:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that your argument applies in this instance, Welshleprechaun, but your comments are very welcome.--Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 07:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I would support any renaming proposal to "Rhondda Cynon Taf" on the basis that when RCT send letters to me they call themselves "Rhondda Cynon Taf", and they should know. All the street furniture is noted as "Rhondda Cynon Taf". All the 'welcome to' street signs on entering the borough say "Rhondda Cynon Taf". And I say "Rhondda Cynon Taf" i.e. Tarv. I can't see any reason to maintain the status quo. Daicaregos (talk) 08:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed Daicaregos. How many of us confirming this does it need before changes are made?--Monkeynuts2008 (talk) 11:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the article was at one time at Rhondda Cynon Taf. In fact, I think I put it there myself. However, this proposal should now be listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Deb (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree entirely with the proposed move/restoration for all the reasons cited above. This is the form used by the council itself: end of argument (but hold on, this is English Wikipedia, the only place apart from a handful of pieces of local government legislation where the counties of Wales are called "principal areas" - sorry to bring up that bugbear here but it's high time we changed that as well...). Enaidmawr (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

As there are no dissenting comments, move has been done. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you Skinsmoke.--89.242.63.20 (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Amending Rhondda Cynon Taff to Rhondda Cynon Taf in individual town's infoboxes has caused the names of the Police and Fire service authorities to disappear e.g. Llantrisant. Anyone know how to remedy this please? Daicaregos (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I was changing a load of infoboxes last night, and also wondering where the Fire and Police info had gone. Why cant we just add this info manually? -Glenny127 (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

They appear automatically, based on which 'Unitary authority - Wales' has been input. I think that Rhondda Cynon Taf needs to be linked to South Wales Police and Welsh Fire Service. but I don't know how to do it. Hopefully, someone will. :) Daicaregos (talk) 14:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys. Nothing wrong with closing the debate and moving it yourselves with overwhelming consensus, but please try to remember to remove the entry from requested moves, so that regulars from WP:RM who close debates and perform moves don't spend time reading the debate only to find it had already been done. Just a heads up. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to let you all know that the infobox problem seems to have been fixed by Warofdreams: see Template talk:Infobox UK place. I've checked a few town/village pages (Llantrisant, Pontypridd, Tonyrefail, Llanharan and Penygraig) and they all seem to be fine. Please let us know here if you find any further problems. Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 18:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)