Talk:Moss

Number of species

This page should say how many species of moss there are. --Savant13 14:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC) I <3 THE JO BROS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.110.202 (talk) 20:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC) There are unknown species I think — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.172.134 (talk) 08:37, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

On the north side?

Is it true that moss only grows on the north side of something, or is this a myth? It sounds false, because I can't think of a single aspect of nature that makes north special.

Bear in mind that I know nothing about mosses, but certainly in the northern hemisphere the north side of anything will get less light, and it does say in the article that mosses prefer low light situations. Maccoinnich 17:16, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

And this is why I don't understand why you guys can just add the information in without research on mosses that reflect this thought. I'm tagging this for expert needed cause you guys are obviously not experts so why should this info be included (without sources)? - M0rphzone (talk) 03:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, in northern latitudes the north side of trees generally will have more moss on average than other sides. South of the equator the reverse is true. No Account

But why is this so? Have there been any studies on this? PeepP 13:48, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The evidence points to this being a reproductive issue. The gametophyte generation in mosses, liverworts and ferns all require the presence of liquid water to allow the motile male gametes to reach the female gametes. In the absence of water no reproduction takes place. Hence the characteristic feature of most thriving communities of mosses, liverworts and ferns is that they live in wet or damp locations. The sunny sides of trees fail this test. There are of course always exceptions and some mosses are able to live in apparently very dry places but in all cases, careful study will reveal the presence of water at critical periods of the year. Velela 14:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Please add this information to the article. PeepP 17:26, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

So I came to this article looking for more information on this because I was outside at work, and looked in the courtyard where there are several large stones. I noticed that moss was growing only on the north-side surfaces of these stones. The Courtyard is enclosed in all fours by tall buildings, so I don't think sunlight exposure is at work here. If you guys find more information regarding this please post. Taco325i 16:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

There are lots of possible reasons, including (1) people tend to sit preferentially on one side of the rocks, preventing moss from growing, (2) the rocks had moss on them when they were placed there and the moss was placed in that direction, (3) water tends to run down that side of the north side because of the slant of the rocks, and half a dozen other possibilities I could mention besides. Note that just because the buildings are tall doesn't mean that during important times of day or important times of the year that the sun doesn't preferentially hit the south side of the rocks. And of course, there's always the possibility that it's pure chance in this case. --EncycloPetey 02:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I just happened to read the right section of the book "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson. At the bottom of p. 427 you can find some info about that. According to him this applies to lichens and not mosses. --Emil Petkov 12:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever Mr Bryson has to say, the evidence is all around, certainly here in the wetter parts of northern Europe. Lichens, mosses and terrestrial coccoid green algae all visibly favour the northern sides of tree trunks. It doesn't require great science to demonstrate it, a walk in the woods is all that is required. Mt Bryson is amusing and erudite but I don't believe has made any claims to be a scientist, great or otherwise. I suggest that enjoying his text as amusing fiction but relying on competent observation and scientific method to determine the verifiable truths in biology may be the optimum balance. Velela 21:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it really accurate to say that the northern side of things get more light? I mean, the sun is obviously 'pointed at' the equator, but it's so friggin huge that it might as well be 'overhead' no matter where you are. The idea that the northern side of the trees is 'wetter' by a significant degree sounds fishy

Why not read some ecology research? The northern side of objects in the northern hemisphere receive less light because of the curvature of the Earth. This feature of the Earth is also responsible for the seasons -- The angle of incident light varies seasonally. The sun is closer to being directly overhead (at noon) during the summer, but sits lower in the sky during winter. On a microclimate scale, it means that (on average) there is more shade on the north side of an object than on the south side. Bryophytes are known to prefer less intense and less direct light because of the problems of retaining water without a vascular system. See Bryophyte Ecology edited by Chopra and Kumra as one source with summary information about water relations in bryophytes. --EncycloPetey 01:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you leave the city you have obviously been in your whole life, and enjoy nature for just a week-end. See a tree that is growing elsewhere than on a sidewalk. Come on ! How can anybody really believe that the north side of anything gets as much light as the south side ? Is the north side of your habitation as hot as the south side in summer at noon ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.56.208.127 (talk) 04:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Let's be civil here. Unfortunately, just 'taking a look around' is only the start of research. I don't know about the northern hemisphere in general, but in my little corner of it, mosses and lichens both are not at all restricted to the north side of their substrates. Or to shady areas for that matter, I have moss in my lawn in full sun. We are far enough north here (Washington State) that the north sides of things get a lot of sun in summer. The sun rises in the north east, and sets in the north west, around the summer solstice. My north facing deck is in shade all winter but full sun in summer. There are other reasons proposed for why mosses grow where they grow. I suppose in most parts of the world, with drier sunnier weather than we get, it may be true that mosses GENERALLY grow on the north sides of their substrates. But it's just a generalization.Dog Walking Girl (talk) 15:32, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

It may be a generalisation, but, in many regions (and I am not in the slightest surprised that Washington state would lack this feature), the moss concentration towards the north sides of objects - and the heaviest concentrations tending towards DUE north, not just any-direction-north-of-east-or-west - is visually obvious to the extent that it cannot be reasonably disputed. This would be near impossible to demonstrate in photographs, though, so showing proof for anyone in a region where this phenomenon doesn't occur would be very difficult. As for Washington and northern climates in general, the North sides of things still receive the least sunlight, even in the summer, and though the days are longer in the summer the farther north one goes, the more northerly places still receive less direct sun than more southerly locales. Hawaii has about a week in summer when their sunlight comes from the north instead of the south, and at the beginning and ending of this period their sun is directly overhead, yet those days are much shorter than Washington's days during that period. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:8D46:3093:F6BA:A219 (talk) 17:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Start it simpler

Um -- could we start a little simpler? This article doesn't really answer "What is moss?" unless you know an awful lot of botany to start with. (And the story about moss being on the north side of trees is said to have helped to make many people even more lost!) Oak 17:24, 04 November 2005

I agree that this article doesn't do a good job in the introduction of clarifying what a moss is for the non-specialist. Part of the problem is that in casual English, the word moss means "green scummy thing on a rock or tree". Many times, the word is applied to a liverwort, alga, or even to some bromeliads (Spanish "moss", a flowering plant) indiscriminately. To distinguish true moss (the subject of this article) from those other plants requires a level of technical description that can be very hard to bring down to the level or the casual reader. The required terminology just doesn't have an equivalent in casual speech. -- EncycloPetey 14:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dioicous vs dioecious

While dioecious is the correct spelling of that word (in both Commonwealth and American English), it is not the correct spelling for the word dioicous, which is another word entirely. In botany, a plant that is dioecious is a diploid sporophyte that produces either microsporangia or megasporangia, but not both on the same plant. A plant that is dioicous is a haploid gametophyte that produces either antheridia or archegonia, but not both on the same plant. So while seed plants may be either monecious or dioecious, they are all dioicous. Bryophytes produce only a single kind of sporangium, and so cannot be truly described as either monecious or dioecious. There are fundamental differences in the life cycle that necessitate a different vocabulary among bryologists. -- EncycloPetey 16:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Image name is misleading

In the image at the start of the Classification section (captioned "three different types of mosses surround this tree trunk"), I can only see two species of moss. The box in the upper right shows a foliose lichen, which is a fungus-alga symbiosis. Also, the box on the left side of the image contains about half moss and half lichen. Does someone have a better image? -- EncycloPetey 16:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

A good source of images is always Wikimedia commons - see [Category:Bryophyta]

Velela 06:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I looked, but that category of the Commons is empty. If I were in Arkansas or North Carolina, I'd just pop out and take a good picture to replace the current one. Unfortunately, the local climate is Mediterranean, which doesn't lend itself to finding good shots of mosses. -- EncycloPetey 13:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right - sorry - no idea why that link didn't work . Try this one instead

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bryophyta.

There are hundreds of images to choose from. On a related topic, I have included a short plain man's guide to mosses at the beginning to overcome criticisms that this artcile was not suitable for non-botanists. I propose to do something similar for Liverworts and Hornworts. Any views ?

Velela 13:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Since this issue covers more than one page, I'll respond on your talk page. -- EncycloPetey 13:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

GA review

While this article is pretty good, unfortunately it is almost completely unsourced, and the good article criteria stresses that all material in the article must be verifiable and cited. Once everything's cited, feel free to nominate this article again! Krimpet (talk/review) 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ant on moss image

This image was removed becuase it was a little blurry. Yes, it's blurry, but it's the only picture on the page that demonstrates the physical scale of moss. I would love to see a better picture, but until such a picture is available, it makes more sense to retain the information conveyed by the picture than to simply delete it for being less than ideal. --EncycloPetey 03:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

As per your request, I've made it part of my to-do list to take a shot of moss (perhaps 2-3 types if I can find them) with a ruler beside it. -- KirinX 05:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Further to that, I still don't think that the image demonstrates scale to a definitive degree anyways, as ants come in many sizes (albeit all are fairly small, but so too can that be said for mosses -- I'm certainly unaware of any large mosses), and for the fact that there are two pictures of trees featuring different types of mosses on the stump or on the trunk of the trees. It's not unreasonable to believe people would have the same ease (or difficulty) in ascertaining scale from any of the pictures, closeups not included. In all honesty, I cannot see why you are defending the removal of this picture to the degree you are. Forgive my shortsightedness. -- KirinX 06:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, which type of ant is it? How big is the ant? How much moss is he standing on? I can't tell from that image, it tells me nothing about moss. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The picture could definitely be imporoved (and should!). I disagree with the arguments about moss on the sides of trees demonstrating scale, though. Some trees may trunks less than a half a foot in diameter, while others may have trunk bases over five feet in diameter (especially in tropical regions). I would have put in a replacement image long ago, but all my good moss images are on photographic slides and I have no way to scan them currently. --EncycloPetey 21:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Moss leaves and stems

Bryologists do not put quotations around the word leaf. They do not call the leaves of mosses and leafy liverworts "leaf-like appendages"; they simply call them leaves. While mosses do not have "true" leaves, they do have leaves. Leaves have evolved multiple times in multiple linages. Even "true" leaves are not homologous among all groups, since the microphylls of lycophytes, the frond of ferns, and the leaves of seed plants all evolved independently of each other. Because of this, it is meaningless to say that mosses do not have "true" leaves, as if the presence of vascular tissue is something special. Denigrating the leaves of mosses is a POV issue perpetuated by botanists who do not study mosses. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Only just now did I find out about your wholesale reversion of my edits. I took this opinion straight from Biology 8th ed. (Raven), specifically page 587, which says,

...The gametophytes of mosses typically consist of small, leaflike structures (not true leaves, which contain vascular tissue) arranged spirally or alternately around a stemlike axis...

This means, in retrospect, that I probably should have cited it, but nevertheless my position was not unfounded. There is a bryologist in my biology department, so I might consult him on the subject, but there are nevertheless large differences between these structures (which might deserve mention in the article).

What I'm more concerned about is this: (diploid, i.e. each chromosome exists with a partner that contains the same genetic information). This isn't terribly accurate. Two homologous chromosomes contain the same loci (in healthy individuals), but may contain different alleles. --♦♦♦Vlmastra♦♦♦ (talk) 03:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No need to ask your bryologist. I have a bryophyte library here and can cite numerous sources from varied leading authors calling these structures leaves without any weasel words. Consider this quote from Crum and Anderson's Mosses of Eastern North America (one of the leading moss Floras in print, v. I p.13, description of Fontinalaceae): "leaves in 3 rows and sometimes conspicuously 3-ranked". Or from Wilf Schofield's Introductory Bryology (p12, general description of moss structure): "The gametophyte consists of an axis, usually termed a stem, and this axis bears leaves." Or from Bryophyte Ecology, edited by A. J. E. Smith (p.114, chap. on Desert Bryophytes): "It is a very general feature of arid region perennial mosses that their leaves change position markedly between the dry and imbibed states." Or from the primary literature "Phenology and Reproductive Biology of Syntrichia inermis..." by Lloyd R. Stark in The Bryologist 100(1):13-27: "It is a distinctive species, recognized by the coiled leaves when dry." Or from authors of India, Biology of Bryophytes by R. N. Chopra and P. K. Kumra (p286 on external water conduction): "In many mosses leaves are closely placed on the stem." Or from New Zealnd authors Bill and Nancy Malcolm The Forest Carpet (p.56): "In most mosses the central region of the leaf thickens into a midrib." In short, you would actually be hard pressed to find any bryological literature that did not call these structures leaves.

There are large difference between the leaves of a waterlily and the leaves of an agave. There are large differences between the leaves of a pine and the leaves of a philodendron. There are large differences between the leaves of a fern and the leaves of a club moss. There are differences between the leaves of a liverwort and the leaves of a moss. An expanded section on general moss morphology and anatomy would certainly be appropriate (and is on my list of things to do), but emphasizing the differences between one taxon and one other taxon would not be appropriate. All modern cladistic studies agree that "leaves" evolved multiple times, even among the vascular plants. So, having vascular tissue in the structure is nothing special. The leaves of ferns evolved independently of the leaves of seed plants, and both evolved independantly of the leaves of lycophytes. Even though they all have "true" leaves in the sense meant by Raven, "true" means nothing. It's merely a human label and is redundant with the fact that those groups are vascular plants.

The definition of diploid is accurate enough to explain what diploid means when it appears as a parenthetical statement glossing the word "diploid" on a page about mosses. More precision may be found by following the link. Your revision introduced the word homologous, which is why I reverted it. Defining an unusual word like diploid by using another unusual word like homologous is not good practice. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Quotation problem?

I was researching mosses on the internet and came across a site with language identical to text in the "Cultivation" section and "Mossery" subsection of this page. It is unclear to me which site is borrowing from which; whichever way it is, the borrowing is not acknowledged, nor could I readily find source notes on either site that would clear up the uncertainty. The site in question is http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/moss/cultivation.html. --ValliNagy —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC).

That site is presenting Wikipedia content. You can see the notice at the bottom of the page, and I can find other sections of this same article quoted there which I am certain did not come from that site. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Growth rate

Does it say anything about growth rate of moss here? Didn't see it but came here looking for that specifically. Icemuon (talk) 01:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

"Moss" is a division-level taxon of about 12,000 different species. Looking for growth rate information on "moss" is like looking for growth rate information on "flowering plants". That sort of information isn't relevant to a high-level grouping where the information will be so highly variable. --EncycloPetey (talk) 06:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Meiosis vs. mitosis

Can we add to the life cycle portion, which generation is reproduced through Meiosis vs. Mitosis? Elleacampbell (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Both generations are produced by mitosis, since both start from a single cell that divides (by mitosis) to become multicellular. Only the spores are produced by meiosis (this is true for all land plants), and that information is already presented in the article under "Life cycle". --EncycloPetey (talk) 15:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

External link

I would like to add a link to the External Links section of this page.

I maintain a site which mostly consists of photographs of mosses.

The site url is: http://www.andrewspink.nl/mosses/ The site title is: Andrew's Moss Site (photos of mosses)

Andrew Spink Andrewspink (talk) 09:34, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

.We usually do not link to external sites unless they provide a significant source of information that is not likely to be included in the article. I've looked at your site ad many of your pictures are of liverworts. It is not just about mosses, but is about bryophytes (mosses and liverworts). It would not be appropriate to link from the Moss article. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC).

Just for the record, it's likely that Andrewspink is using the English word "moss" incorrectly. In many (?most) Germanic languages, the cognate of "moss" is more generic than in modern English. For example in German "Moos" (plural "Moose") includes mosses, liverworts and hornworts which are "Laubmoose", "Lebermoose" and "Hornmoose" respectively. Noting that his website is in the Netherlands, I'm assuming the same is true of Dutch. In Modern English, "moss" does not include "liverwort". Thus Watson's classic text on British bryophytes is called "British Mosses and Liverworts"; it could not be called just "British Mosses". Peter coxhead (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

“rm blurry image; does not add to article”?  I disagree.

  I happened to see, today, what I thought was the most perfect example I had ever seen of a small moss growth, showing both the gametophyte and sporophyte forms.  With some difficulty, I took this photograph.  It was not easy, as this was too small to photograph directly with my camera, and too large to put under my microscope; beside which I would not have been able to put it under my microscope without severely damaging it in the process of removing it from where I found it.

  In spite of the crude and awkward method to which I had to resort to take this picture, I thought it came out beautifully.  A quick examination of this Wikipedia article on Moss, and a quick browse of the Wikimedia Commons failed to show any other image that comes anywhere close to showing what this does, as well as this does.  Though it could use a better caption than I was able to think of, I thought this picture would be a very worthwhile addition to this article, so I uploaded and added it.

  Apparently, someone disagrees with me about the value of this image.  Not an hour after I added it, my change was reverted, with the explanation “rm blurry image; does not add to article“.  Blurry?  I admit that the image is not perfect, but the word “blurry” implies a far greater lack of focus and sharpness than this image shows.  The background, of course, is completely blurred out, but in an image of this type, I think that is desirable anyway, as it prevents the background from distracting from the subject.  It is far sharper and in better focus than is needed to clearly show what it shows, which is the distinction between the gametophyte and sporophyte forms of this moss.  Surely, this distinction is an important thing to show in this article.  There is no other image in this article which shows this, and I cannot find another image anywhere on the Commons that shows it nearly as well.

  And not that I would argue for the removal of any of the other images that currently appear in this article, but there are several which surely contribute less to this article than mine would.

  —Bob Blaylock (talk) 03:10, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't involved in the initial removal, but I'm afraid that I agree with it.

• I agree that the article does really need a good image showing a sporophyte growing from a gametophyte; the best in the article at present is the "red moss capsules" one, but it isn't sufficiently close-up to show the detail that would be useful.
• I agree that if it were sharp, your image would be a good addition; its content is just about perfect.
• However, and doubtless there are subjective preferences here, your image is just too out-of-focus for me. I have downloaded the original and spent some time trying to sharpen it with Photoshop, but it doesn't make much difference. The original simply not sharp enough (a.k.a. too blurred).

So I have removed the image again. Please accept that I'm simply trying to make a Wikipedia article as high quality as possible. Peter coxhead (talk) 02:21, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Would this from commons be any better?  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

No, the sporophytes aren't fully developed and are still enclosed within the calyptrae (i.e. gametophyte tissue). This Pogonatum image has better developed sporophytes, but they're still inside the gametophytic calyptra. I do find an Atrichum image that shows a clear sporophyte on an extended stalk. There might also be some good images in Category:Pottiaceae. I didn't look because my browser doesn't seem to want to load thumbnail images right now, but mosses in that famiy have characteristically short and erect gametophytes, and often have sporophytes present. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

This image isn't bad: Barbula spadicea, but a sharp, natural-looking image of a single mature sporophyte attached to its gametophyte is what is really needed Peter coxhead (talk) 17:05, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

  I remembered, earlier today, just as I was in my final stages of getting ready to go to work (and thus not able to take time to do anything about this at that time) this picture that I produced nearly a year ago.  Technically, it's a good picture, but I really don't like it.  It looks too “unnatural” and the gametophyte is shriveled and not very prominent.  This one was made by putting the moss on a flatbed scanner, and scanning it.  It's nice and sharp, at least, but I really don't think it looks as good as my other picture, which I still disagree is too “blurry”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob Blaylock (talk • contribs) 06:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Mosses and water

There are some places in the article where the implication is that mosses generally (as opposed to some mosses or even most mosses) require moist habitats to live in; these statements are not clearly sourced. What can be sourced is that mosses are actually more tolerant of dehydration than almost all vascular plants: "vegetative DT [=desiccation tolerance] is rare, except among bryophytes. Evolution of this trait was important in facilitating the colonization of the land, but was lost subsequently in vascular plants." Stefan A. Rensing; et al. (2008), "The Physcomitrella Genome Reveals Evolutionary Insights into the Conquest of Land by Plants", Science, 319 (5859): 64–69, doi:10.1126/science.1150646 {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help) Here's one example from the article as at 01:29, 19 April 2011 which concerns me: "Since mosses have no vascular system to carry water through the plant, they must have a damp environment in which to live, and a surrounding of liquid water to reproduce." This seems to me to be misleading of mosses generally. Mosses like Tortula muralis (Wall Screw-moss) are commonly found on walls in full sun in the British Isles; there's nothing "damp" about this environment. Although mosses don't have the tissues which botanists call 'vascular', many do have water-conducting systems. Although there must be moisture for the very last stage of fertilization, this can be provided by rain, so that only a very temporary "surrounding of liquid water" is needed. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, this is one of the most common misconceptions about mosses and about bryophytes in general. Most bryophytes only need free water for a short period, because they have a rapid life cycle, or because they dehydrate completely during the dry season, or because they live in rain forests (tropical or temperate) where there is daily precipitation. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree that the text is misleading. That full sun wall in the British Isles is going to be pretty damp whenever it rains and for some time afterwards. It does rain quite often in most of the British Isles, as I understand. The text does say that mosses can survive months of dessication and can grow in sunny seasonally dry habitats (like your wall). I don't have a good technical source for this, but sounds like you do; please add it. I also do not have a good technical source for information on moss water conduction so I do not want to go into details about it in the text. I also thought a general audience might not care. Sounds like you do have a good source, though, and could easily add it. The more references and the more technical, the better! Dog Walking Girl (talk) 23:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Tortula muralis is not limited to the British Isles. It also grows commonly across North America, including California and Nevada, where it doesn't rain for many months at a time. The plant still thrives even without water for much of the year. Hence, the information about mosses growing only in damp environments is very misleading; it's a common misconception and many people try to refit the facts to this preconception. But the preconception is incorrect. I expect to add fuller information about water and bryophytes, but don't have the time to invest in such a large undertaking right now, in part because of work and in part because I don't have easy access to a great library anymore. It will have to wait until I have some significant time off work. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:39, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Another water-related point is the issue of water uptake by rhizoids. The article states "Mosses do not absorb water or nutrients from their substrate through their rhizoids". Is this a verifiable fact? I doubt that the rhizoids are any less absorptive than other parts of a moss gametophyte. Plantsurfer (talk) 11:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Is the lead image wrong?

I honestly cant see anything in the picture that has to do with moss. If I'm wrong its fine, but..Im just not seeing it. Should we replace it without something more accurate? I just don't think it should have to be this hard to discern the meaning of a picture. 74.132.249.206 (talk) 13:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

It is artwork but it is indubitably an illustration of many different mosses and not much else.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   13:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem for many readers is that the prominent features in the image are sporophytes, whereas non-specialists would expect to see a predominantly green gametophyte. I think it would be better to use an image in the taxobox which showed mostly a gametophyte with some sporophytes, something like File:Polytrichum.commune.2.jpg, although this looks a bit under-saturated to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree, although I do quite like the current taxobox image. The Polytrichum image looks like a scanned image from a transparency which has been enhanced. I think that we should be able to do better than that.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   20:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Polytrichum is also a moss with highly atypical morphology. I think the dual emphasis of the current image is far better than any photograph I've seen thus far on Commons (and I've been looking). --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:08, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 July 2013

Please change "mites can effect moss fertilization" to "mites can affect moss fertilization" because effect is a noun and affect is a verb. 98.171.161.52 (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Done with thanks. NiciVampireHeart 23:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2014

This page is not actually about moss, but about bryophyta. It needs to be renamed, and a new page established about moss. The source of the confusion is that "moss" is typically used by botanists as a synonym for "bryophyta". However, this is jargon. "Moss" is not a term from botanical taxonomy, but a word with meaning and usage that far predates modern biological taxonomy, and it does not correlate with bryophyta. In fact, although most mosses are bryophytes, some, such as Spanish moss, are totally unrelated and anatomically dissimilar. Ed Uber Ed Uber (talk) 22:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Generally I prefer articles like this to be at the scientific name. On the other hand, "Bryophyta" and "bryophyte" are also problematic, since although some sources do use Bryophyta in the narrow meaning of the old class Musci, the informal term is still widely used for the paraphyletic group. (There's a similar problem for Fern.) There could, I suppose, be a Set Index Article at "List of plants known as moss" which disambiguated the uses. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:20, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The practice of harvesting peat moss should not be confused with the harvesting of moss peat

The above statement is confusing. Please link peat moss to sphagnum and moss peat to peat. 207.219.3.250 (talk) 19:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed the following paragraph:

The practice of harvesting peat moss should not be confused with the harvesting of moss peat. Peat moss can be harvested on a sustainable basis and managed so that regrowth is allowed, whereas the harvesting of moss peat is generally considered to cause significant environmental damage as the peat is stripped with little or no chance of recovery.

No citations have been offered in a year and a half, and the harvesting of peat is sustainable when done right. Certainly no less sustainable than harvesting living moss. Anyway, it's either wrong or controversial. -Freekee (talk) 05:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2016

There are two instances of "a moss" in the article, which could be replaced with "moss". 83.83.9.234 (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

They could be, but this would make less sense in my view than the existing text. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:13, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

File:Bryum capillare leaf cells.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Bryum capillare leaf cells.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 30, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-08-30. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:34, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Live leaf cells of the moss Bryum capillare, showing abundant chloroplasts (green spherical bodies) and their accumulated starch granules (elongated bodies within chloroplasts). This image was created through focus stacking with images each one micron apart.Photograph: Des Callaghan

Maintenance

First, I am no expert. I was looking for info. I noticed a couple of items. First, the paragraph: "They appear to be the closest living relatives of the vascular plants." needs clarification. Based on location, I think "they" is Polytrichopsida. But this could easily be wrong. Second, I changed this wikilink: Bryophyta to Bryophyta. This had caused me a lot of confusion, but I think I have the distinction between bryophytes and Bryophyta straight. I know it points to a "disambiguation" page but this did more to clarify the moss classification than anything else. User-duck (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Linking to a disambiguation page is bad practice. "Bryophyta" as a taxon is now simply the scientific name for mosses alone, so is a potential alternative name for the article, and would normally be in bold. I think the statement should be moved higher up in the lead section. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The page Bryophyta is a disambiguation page, and should not be linked to in text like this. Bryophyte is a valid place to link, so your change was not warranted. One should not replace a directly targeted link with a link to a disambiguation page. Also, "Bryophyta" in the sense of Moss is covered by the page Moss (see taxobox), and also should not be linked from here because the topic is covered on this very page. We don't create links from a page that merely point back to the same page. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I have rewritten the text concerning closest living relatives, as the text was misplaced, somewhat confusing, and not accepted under current hypotheses about land plant phylogeny. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2020

As part of a 300 level genetics class at Reed College I have written an article on the genetics of moss. I am hoping to add this as a new section to the moss main page. The article references scientific primary literature and is graded for accuracy and citations by the professor. Meierha (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Genetics

Mosses use endoreduplication to deal with environmental stress factors, to express various ploidy levels. In endoreduplication, mitosis does not occur once DNA replication has occurred. Consequently, mosses alter their ploidy to allow for increased gene duplication of required genes and to protect from deleterious mutations. Being polyploid allows organisms to buffer the effects of these mutations, temporarily increasing the population's fitness. Since the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of mosses, there has been at least one major whole-genome duplication (WGD) event. This suggests that polyploidization could be partly responsible for the diversification of the Bryophyta division as the WGD occurred prior to the beginning of diversification.

Polyploidy is common in plants, between 47% and 70% of angiosperm species are estimated to be polyploid. In some flowering plant species, an organism becomes a polyploid at approximately 10% of the rate of speciation, showing that this occurs rapidly. The stressors that can lead to these polyploidy events are numerous and can be biotic or abiotic, such as extreme temperature conditions or damage to the plant. The ploidy of moss also increases as you travel in latitude from the equator, in either direction. While the stress factors are known, it is unclear to what extent each stressor affects the rate of polyploidization for a given species. In order for polyploidization to occur in any organism, two criteria must be met. Firstly, there must be a mutation event that leads to an organism expressing polyploid levels and, secondly, the mutation must be selected for in order to maintain it in the population. There are a number of ways for a mutation event to occur that results in polyploidy. The one that is most commonly associated with polyploidy developing in plants is gametic non-reduction.

Being able to express different ploidy levels allows for varying levels of gene expression. This means that if in a stressful environment a certain gene is more beneficial, this gene will be expressed more and will increase the organism's fitness. A specific subspecies of polyploids are autopolyploids which are the result of intraspecific polyploidization. Organisms that become autopolyploids as a result of sexual reproduction are more likely to be heterozygous than autopolyploids that result from chromosome doubling. Organisms that are homozygous autopolyploids do not present much of an advantage over diploid organisms, so polyploidization appears to only benefit heterozygotes. Plants which are polyploid are able to maintain heterozygosity through generations, in addition to being able to take advantage of heterosis. Even though an increase in ploidy size leads to a larger genome size which in turn has energetic costs, there are benefits to being an autopolyploid heterozygote when confronted with stress. Although polyploidy can inhibit the growth of gametophores in some moss species, it can also give the organism other advantages such as the ability to enter new environmental niches,.

While it is clear that there are benefits to being a polyploid it is unclear what exact mechanism leads to autopolyploidy in mosses. It could be that this process takes place due to the duplication of an individual's genome or that genomes from multiple individuals are required. However, it is clear that cross-fertilization is a driving force in polyploidization in dioecious species. While this is how polyploid heterozygotes are formed for dioecious species, there is also some evidence that this occurs in monoecious mosses.

There are, however, downsides to becoming autopolyploids. When a deleterious mutation occurs in a population the mutation load will affect polyploids significantly more than haploids. This is in part because mutations can hide in the genome of diploids and polyploids more than they can in haploids and the mutation can be passed on before having deleterious effects on the population. However, because polyploid species carry masked mutations at the same rate as the diploids that they evolved from there is a temporary fitness boost in the polyploid population in comparison with the diploid population.

Many questions remain open about the ploidy of Bryophyta and why these organisms might become polyploids. It is clear from the literature that stress is a major factor in changing the ploidy of moss, but to what extent a given stressor affects Bryophyta’s ploidy is still unknown. The mechanisms that are required for varying ploidy levels are well studied in plants as they are common occurrences, especially in angiosperms. The numerous occurrences of polyploidy events in the plant kingdom indicate that they must give organisms some fitness advantage.

References

References

Meierha (talk) 18:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

"City Trees" section is misleading.

"London" didn't install anything, London is a city, the "City Trees" were installed by the company Evergen as promotional deal with the Leytonstone Council. The page uses a paid advertising article as a source instead of any official statement from Leytonstone Council or Evergen themselves. Not to mention the fact it's horrendously out of date, We don't have 3 City Trees in Leytonstone anymore for a start.

Typical Wikipedia, just jam packed with arrogant people who want to feel smart because they can use google. Try doing some real research instead of believing the propaganda articles from the press as if they are there to inform people and not just manipulate their opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.6.41.142 (talk) 16:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

hi pls the economic disorder is bad (it says good) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.76.116.24 (talk) 23:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of 'Moss'

As someone from Scotland where the word 'moss' is commonly used as per its root meaning, that is a 'marsh or peat bog', I'm wondering if that should be mentioned in this article? I know there is the Moss (disambiguation) page where this point is made - though in an obscure location - but is it not notable here that the word in English for the plants of the division Bryophyta derives from the word for a marsh or peat bog and that this is, to this day, still in use in parts of the UK (not just Scotland)? Jp2207 (talk) 19:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Getting this to GA

Hey friends! The original GA review for Moss quarreled primarily (and correctly) with the presence of unsourced material. Happily, it looks like that's been pretty much resolved. Three tasks remain, in the following order.

1. Score the *current* article with the GA criteria

2. Based on the results, improve the article

3. Request a reassessment

One editor with a special interest in Botany (that's me!) isn't going to make this happen in a vacuum. Also, there may be others working independently on this exact project. It's logical to collaborate. No editor who has worked hard on Moss in the past should be left out or uncredited. Here's what we need to do.

• Enlist editors who've helped elevate other articles to GA status
• Reach out to editors with a special interest in Botany (like me!)
• Figure out precisely who (plural) was involved in the last Moss GA push, and petition their direct involvement

Several things will help this effort stay organized.

A. Some directory of editors actively working on this project

B. Use of central hubs like the Wikipedia discord

C. A list of who is working on what tasks

---

P.S. This is an ambitious task for a new editor like me. Please feel free to append your opinion below. I need all of the advice I can get.

Polytrichum commune (talk) 14:07, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello Polytrichum commune! I'd recommend asking for help on Wikiproject Plants or something similar. —asparagusus (interaction) ^sprouts! 14:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

That's a great idea, thank you so much asparagus

Polytrichum commune (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Update! The quality scale developed by Wikiproject Plants is a good resource, with references to similar articles which have reached GA or above. Polytrichum commune (talk) 14:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Update! I've created a proposal on Wikiproject Plants Polytrichum commune (talk) 15:04, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Good article criteria checklist

Immediate fails

• Experienced reviewers need to score Moss on the six criteria To do
• Someone needs to triple-check for copyright issues To do
• There are no unresolved cleanup banners Done
• There's no edit-warring on the page Done
• The primary issue noted in the previous GA review has been addressed Done

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The six criteria

• Well-written Check
• Verifiable with no original research Check
• Broad in its coverage Check
• Neutral Checked
• Stable Checked
• Well-Illustrated Check

Polytrichum commune (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Update! I've posted a note on the GA nominations talkpage, requesting help finding the archived original GA nomination for Moss along with any discussion that was had. We should read everything that was ever written on the topic. Polytrichum commune (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 and @Caeciliusinhorto found the original GA nomination + discussion. (Thank you!) and graciously took the time to examine the current article for the issues which were noted before.

To paraphrase their insights

• Since 2007, Moss has grown by 2500 words and 73 inline citations. The only criticism back in 2007 seems to have been the presence of unsourced material. The article *looks* better today, but still needs significant work.
• Caeciliusinhorto suggested: "Step one for bringing the current article to GA status would be to fix the three citation needed tags; step two would be to address the fact that by my count currently 16 further paragraphs do not end in an inline citation, and several do not contain a single inline citation."

This seems like an excellent starting point. Polytrichum commune (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

---

• There are two citation needed tags in Physical Characteristics, and one in Life Cycle. (Sources need to be found which can corroborate the information within these sections).

1. "Mosses do not absorb water or nutrients from their substrate through their rhizoids." <citation needed>

2. "Other differences are not universal for all mosses and all liverworts, but the presence of a clearly differentiated stem with simple-shaped, non-vascular leaves that are not arranged in three ranks, all point to the plant being a moss." <citation needed>

3. "Within the capsule, spore-producing cells undergo meiosis to form haploid spores, upon which the cycle can start again. The mouth of the capsule is usually ringed by a set of teeth called peristome. This may be absent in some mosses." <citation needed>

• Perplexingly, there's one excessive citations tag at the beginning of the Classification section. (There are too many sources, and it's not efficient or aesthetically pleasing).

4. "More recently, mosses have been grouped with the liverworts and hornworts in the division Bryophyta (bryophytes, or Bryophyta sensulato)." <excessive citations>

---

- I have no idea why the original author thought this sentence needed nonuple the number of necessary citations, but it's worth checking out the sources. Maybe they're full of useful information which could be used to verify information in other sections? Polytrichum commune (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Some recommendations:

• I would remove the gallery under the Habitat section. Galleries were common in the early days but are usually disliked and seen as superfluous without very good reasons nowadays.
• I would incorporate the Gathering Moss: A Natural and Cultural History of Mosses text recommended in Further Reading. I'd also highly highly recommend learning SFNs and using them for any source you're citing multiple times, especially books and articles that are more than a couple pages in length.
• I would particularly recommend expanding the cultivation and uses section; I bet there are sources you could dig up on JSTOR, etc. There's quite a few unsourced statements there already, like the ones about mosseries.
• At the moment there is no section about the evolutionary origins of moss, and I feel that's fairly important information for a broad understanding of the subject matter. This article seems to give a good evolutionary overview of mosses.
• Once you feel completely confident the article is read for GA (the prose is polished and fits WP:MOS guidelines, every paragraph is sourced, ) I would open it up for Peer Review. Since this is your first GA attempt and its such a big subject, I think it'd be very important to get as much feedback as possible on it before submitting it to GAN.

It's great seeing motivated new editors. As long as you're always looking out for editor feedback (and take in stride what will no doubt seem like navel-gazing MOS comments), I think this'll go well. :3 Generalissima (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@Polytrichum commune: Oh, one more thing; make sure every statement made in the lede is elaborated on in the body! Right now there's no mentions of lichens in the body, and I feel that ought to be a section entirely. Peat production from mosses gets only a glancing mention in the body, and reforestation isn't mentioned at all.

One thing I like to do is make the lede entirely citationless; since its ideally a summary of the whole body of text, you shouldn't be making statements there you aren't already citing in the body. Generalissima (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, this is a good tip. Stylistically, and just from a commonsense perspective. Once everything's sourced, I'll make sure any claims made in the lede are also included and sourced elsewhere in the text, then move sourced content which isn't duplicated anywhere else (which, there shouldn't be any, but you never know) to a body section where it fits, and remove any remaining citations from the lede. Polytrichum commune (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

(Note to self: add a section on lichens, expand the coverage of peat production from mosses, and touch on conservation/reforestation efforts) Polytrichum commune (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Aw heck yeah, good ideas! I'll begin working on these!!!

• I'll just remove the gallery wholesale, then clean up the formatting so it still looks pretty.
• I'll crack open Gathering Moss: A Natural and Cultural History of Mosses, which should help me verify the portions of the article which are missing citations. And I'll learn about SFNs, that sounds like something I should self-teach immediately!
• I'll page through JSTOR and other repositories for content which looks like it'd feel at home in the cultivation & uses section-- that should do a lot for the article. It'll also help satisfy the topics-covered/broadness criteria for GA status.
• I'll probably familiarize myself with the arc of the GA process from start to finish, including the Peer Review step you mentioned (although it might be a while before Moss gets there-- but fingers crossed!) and you're abasolutely right, I'm going to need a LOT of community feedback.

Thank you so much for all of the effort you've put into helping me get started, seriously, I plan to earn that lofty praise you keep lavishing on me XD

Polytrichum commune (talk) 19:38, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

... Ho, hum. It looks like I actually can't edit Moss for another three days. It's semi-protected, so I'll have to wait until I'm autoconfirmed. @Generalissima until then I'll just dig into the reading, organize my work, and learn as much as I can. Polytrichum commune (talk) 19:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Of course! One other thing I could recommend is trying to get a specific species or genus of moss to GA just so you're already familiar with the process; broad subject GAs can be really daunting, but once you have a decent grounding in the process it gets a lot easier. Generalissima (talk) 19:51, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

That would be fantastic practice. Invaluable, actually, before attempting something of this scale. I'll take a look at a few Moss species which are close to GA already (if I can find one) and make it a side-project. That way, I'll have done it at least once. Polytrichum commune (talk) 19:55, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I have a candidate. How about Sphagnum? It's B-class, has 1/2 the wordcount of Moss, and appears to be a only small leap away from GA status. The talkpage already has a well-organized post suggesting improvements. Polytrichum commune (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

(Note to self: Moss scientist Robin Wall Kimmerer would be a good source. Her book Gathering Moss seems scientific, citable, and well written). Polytrichum commune (talk) 20:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Sphangnum looks like a perfect one. And I can let you know my secret when writing these things; look through the best recent-ish book on the subject (in this case, Gathering Moss) and just completely pilfer the bibliography section for sources. Generalissima (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Omg, 100% stealing your secret forever. Mwahaha. Polytrichum commune (talk) 20:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)