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I hope it doesn't need explaining that this chinoiserie fable takes place in an imaginary Peking, not in modern-day Beiping, with its bicycle traffic-jams and coal-fire smogs. Wetman 08:50, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi! I added a link to a jpg picture I used on french and italian Wikipedia to illustrate this article.
Maybe some of you will want to upload it to your own Wikipedia and add it to this page.
C’est Logique 31/10/2004.
Actually, Puccini's source was Andrea Maffei's translation of Friedrich Schiller's translation (1802) of Carlo Gozzi's comedy. --Al pereira02:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to Ashbrook & Powers, p60, whilst it's true that this Maffei version was what Puccini first read (Simoni gave it him to read on the train!, in Milan in mid March 1920) it's likely that the librettists worked directly from Gozzi after that, since he mentions returning the book to Simoni, and usually referred to Gozzi as their source from then on. And the back cover/tailpiece to the Ricordi score says 'the libretto, by A & S, is adapted from an 18th century fairy-tale by Carlo Gozzi' Linuxlad (talk) 16:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If this index is not Turandot but Turandot (Puccini),
I admit leaving out Pétis`s Turandot.
However,Turandot is not only known by Gozzi or Puccini,but by Pétis.
According to " L'énigmatique Turandot de Puccini. " in 1995 written by Robert Aubaniac who is researcher of Turandot, Chinese princess was named Turandoct by Pétis for the first time.--61.23.86.1914:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article states that Toscanini said "Qui finì il Maestro", giving as a source an unidentified 1974 interview. A quick look at the Italian version of this article shows that they reckon he actually said the less terse "Qui termina la rappresentazione perché a questo punto il Maestro è morto".
In 1974, I interviewed a retired opera singer/teacher who had been a teenager in the audience that night. She said there were a lot of urban legends about what Toscanini said. But she heard him say clearly Qui, il Maestro finì. Unfortunately I don't have my notes and it would be almost impossible by now to track her down, but this is much more in keeping with Toscanini's known character. --Bluejay Young (talk) 08:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
am I the only one to find italics in the "Noted arias" section quite ugly? I know they are "foreign" titles but that's inconsistent either with the rest of the article text and with the articles about single arias. BTW, I don't think we'll have an article about *each* aria. Especially if such articles will have nothing to say about music structure and lyrics (I see that even this article about Turandot says very little from a musical point of view. It just tells the plot, the character names and a few other things. It's the same trend one can see on singer articles: instead of telling things such as their vocal characteristics (extension etc.) they just report their biography) --Gennaro Prota14:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Gennaro Prota - Complete summary for my 16:46 UTC, 25 April 2006 edit
Sorry, this time I did too many changes in one edit. Here's the complete summary:
accessibility: improved image description (users with non-visual browsers could not infer the citation was from the score)
removed italics in Italian titles - cf. for instance La vie en rose, Volare etc.
bypassed again redirect for première; why on earth was it removed??
used semicolon for film title separation, as one of the titles contains a comma
bypassed redirect on Manowar album title
minor stylistic fixes
added a source text comment about the Delta Airlines spot (Who cares?)
PS: Lemuel and Al, please use edit summaries. Lemuel, you actually use them but note half of the changes, which accounts for why I missed your dash-addition in one of the conflicts :-/ Edit summaries take 1 minute to write, and save hours to us altogether.
In discussion and performance I've always heard the "t" pronounced, but apparently that's not always done. Maybe someone more knowledge than I can talk about this in the article? Fireplace 15:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Both Corelli and Domingo pronounce it to rhyme with "ought". Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course "it isn't French" but since "Turandot" is a transliteration invented by the composer, it is his original intention that determines how it should be pronounced. And Puccini's intention was to omit the final "t". [1]Gerrymeander (talk) 03:09, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the removal of this section as it makes the article... well... less informative. I don't think the edit was in accordance with the policy which, I believe, is more to stop humerous worthless trivia creating an un-encylopedia like tone.
Sure some of the trivia can go (i.e. "Was used in a 1991television commercial for Delta Air Lines. " - who cares?) but some of the trivia (such as that about Pavarotti's performance of it at the winter olympics and the fact that it was performed by one of the world's premiere heavy metal bands) is both interesting and shows how popular the work is.
The replacement sentance "Nessun dorma has become a popular culture standard and is recognizable to most Western ears. " also has a problem in that it can't be referenced, and comes off sounding like original research.
I think its probably better to demonstrate how famous the work is with interesting "trivia" (if you want to call it that and the Wikipedia guidelines reccomend you don't) rather than just say how famous it is. Perhap's i'll prepare a compromise and come back with it in a few days?
Enrico Minetti, concertmaster of the Scala orchestra at the time of the premiere, says that Toscanini's wording was "Qui finisce l'opera, rimasta incompiuta per la morte del Maestro." (Here end the opera, which remains incompklete because of the composer's death.) I don't have the work handy to cite it as a source, unfortunately--but, remember, he was sitting inches away from Toscanini at the moment that he spoke. Fred Lane02:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm back again. A little thought has led me to the notion that Ricordi Scaligeri must be the book I'm recalling, because the title could mean, among other things, "Memories of La Scala." That would be a logical title for the memoirs of its concertmster. Fred Lane04:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I know what the title means (I'm Italian) :-) I'll try to find out an exact reference. I think there are two sources of confusion: a) the film by Camillo Mastrocinque where Toscanini turns out to the audience and pronounces some words which probably don't reflect the original ones b) the fact that the opera was performed once on April 25, 1926 and then again two years later, in both cases without the Alfano ending. In the first case I think I've read that Toscanini simply remained silent. —Gennaro Prota•Talk08:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Has anyone considered how Puccini's score ends after the woman who has loved the prince all along dies. I understand how Puccini planned a happy ending, but it is so much more tragic with the version Toscaninni did. (Posted by 75.16.50.223, 10:41, 5 May 2007)
I don’t know, but…. I have a feeling that Puccini would not make it as a “happy ending” story. I have been thinking of this for many years, if only he could lived to finish this opera, I think the ending would be somewhat different.. just like Tosca! Well, this is just my opinion - Jay16:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's been at least one recent production I read, where as Alfano's tub-thumping rerun of Nessun Dorma is pounded out, in the backdrop can be seen the aged Timur accompanying the dead body of Liu... Linuxlad (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For a discussion of how a more complex and satisfactory final scene, (in which the role of Liu as the true hier of Lo-u-Ling's character), is implied in the tonal changes of the first 2 and a half scenes and the sketches, see [2] by Petty & Tuttle - (this is a fun read, but it might well just be psycho-babble! 80.177.213.144 (talk) 21:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Totallly. Toscanini was right to refuse to conduct the ending. Besides, ending with the tragic death of a character is far better "dramatically" than some slapped-together "love conquers all" finale.--TheRealZajac (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The WP text currently implies that the Alfano/Berio reconstructions start after this duet, but other texts give this duet as the start of their reconstructions. Anyone know the true position? The duet includes some nice touches, including the recall of the powerful music from the end of 'in questa reggia', and it would be good to know if Puccini had intended these. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 10:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt that the reconstruction starts from the duet. The duet was sketched by Puccini for the most part (included the end of "In questa reggia": "Mai nessun m'avrà..."). It's difficult to explain the details. The most refined episode, in the sketches, is "Mio fiore mattutino". --Al Pereira(talk)11:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this detailed info - is there a web-accessible(*) reference for the state of these drafts you can give? Linuxlad (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC) (*There appear to be several relevant academic articles on google, but they are all pay-to-view :-()[reply]
The first organic reasearch on the sketches was published by Jürgen Maehder, Studien zum Fragmentcharakter con Giacomo Puccinis "Turandot", Analecta Musicologica XXII, 1984, pp. 297-379; but in my opinion the start point of the sketches doesn't need a reference, because it is in every recent book on Puccini's opera, as well as in the Grove Opera. --Al Pereira(talk)10:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does this tie in with the 1990 paper by Janet Maguire (The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 74, No. 3 (1990), pp. 319-359) I keep on stumbling over (but can't access). Linuxlad (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I note that Turandot is presently at number 12 in Opera America's listing of most performed operas. But my recollection is that this was not always so - a 1959 article in Time [3], characterises the work as 'rarely performed'; and that would seem to confirm my recollection of my student 60s (spent listening to the BBC Music Programme!), when the work still had an aura of rarity and of impregnability, enhanced by its unfinished status. Do others share this perception of a change? Why has it happened? Can it really all be down to the use in the 1990 World Cup! Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 14:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From Ashbrook & Powers P160 'With the onset of the depression, and because Jeritza refused to continue in the title role, Turandot was given but once [at the Met.] in the 1929/30 season, and then dropped from the repertory. Thirty years would elapse before it returned to the Metropolitan.' So,... Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 13:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Later confirmation - the notes to the 1965 EMI recording (soloists Nilsson, Corelli, Scotto, Giaiotti, reissued on CD 1988) are by William Weaver who writes 'For many years however the opera's popularity lagged far behind that of P's earlier works, and to some extent it still does.' Linuxlad (talk) 16:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is the foreigner who murdered Lo u Ling an ancestor of Calaf's? I'm really not sure about this but I think it's mentioned in In questa reggia, that these events happened when a Tartar king invaded China or something like that. So, if Turandot says that Lo u Ling now lives in her again, is the same symbolically true about Calaf, so that the tragedy can be "repaired"?
The criticism mentioned in the article, about their love being nothing more than physical passion, makes some sense, because there really apperas to be no other grounds for that. But perhaps they were meant to fall in love with each other, or destined, if you like, to make up for what happened.
Too much symbolism in this opera, anyway :D
Erunanne (talk) 09:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See my point earlier - restated in full on Whjayg's talk page - The Ashbrook & Powers tome seems fairly clear that Schiller was only used as an initial guide/inspiration (see p60, 61 ), (a copy was given to P by Simoni just as the train was going!) - and the back cover of the Ricordi score clearly says 'Adami & Simoni adapted from Gozzi'. I have edited the line. bob Linuxlad (talk) 09:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That story comes from Adami's memoirs, and like so many of Adami's recollections, it is of questionable veracity. Simoni had already done an adaptation of Gozzi's play, and there is record of Simoni and Puccini discussing it as a possible opera a year before the train ride. (I think there's no question that the opera is more Gozzi than Schiller, which is plainly evident from comparisons of the texts.) Iglew (talk) 06:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have some quibbles with the first paragraph of the "History" section. I've not yet hazarded a rewrite, since I'm not prepared to properly reference it, but I'm sure my notes are better than what's on the page now. I should probably write a complete section on that, but for now, here's a partially sourced summary:
The Persian origin of the story is undeniable, but there's no evidence that a Persian Hezar o-yek shab existed at all. Petis de la Croix represented his publication as a "translation" of that supposed work, but no text nor clear reference survives in Persian. Petis's work may have been based on such a text now lost, or it may have been a fabrication. Petis was clearly trying to duplicate the success of Gallard's "1001 Nights" and whatever preface he wrote to his collection should be read with his commercial motive in mind. There is strong evidence that Petis's work is not a direct translation of a single text. Exactly where he collected the stories from has not been fully studied. Petis was a Persian scholar and would have been well familiar with the body of stories. Probably he pieced them together from numerous sources and invented the fiction of "1001 Days" as a nice presentation for his audience.
The earliest known source of the story is Nizami's Haft Paykar, which is available in English translation (Meisami, 1995), where it's the story told by the fourth princesses. Anyone can read that text and see for himself what resembles Puccini's story and what doesn't. Nizami's story does not use the name "Turando(kh)t". I've read that the "Turandot" name was added in a version by al-Lari, but I can't confirm that.
It is commonly assumed that Gozzi got his version from Petis de la Croix, particularly since no other European version is known from before Gozzi, but that hasn't been conclusively established. Peter Chelkowski has suggested the possibility that Gozzi got it from a now-lost translation from "Cristoforo Armeno" (whether Armeno actually existed or was a pseudonym for some other source of Tramezzino), who provided the translation of Princes of Serendip that Gozzi used.
It has also been suggested that translated versions of the Haft Paykar story found their way through the Ottoman Empire. Robert Irwin mentions a 17th century version of the 1001 Nights in Romanian, which he traces by way of Greek, Syriac, and Arabic translations. Other Persian stories may have made a similar passage. This is particularly interesting in view of the Grimm tale "Das Meerhäschen" ("the Sea Hare"), which the Grimms attribute to a collection of stories from Transylvania. The Sea Hare story bears strong resemblance to the original Turandot story from Haft Paykar.
All of the European versions of Turandot (and there are many besides just Schiller) derive from Gozzi. Although it's true that Puccini knew Maffei's translation of Schiller (and I believe he also knew Volmöller's), I agree with others here who say Puccini's librettists primary source was Gozzi. I don't doubt, however, that other texts had secondary influence. In particular, some elements in Puccini's libretto seem to derive from the libretto Gazzoletti wrote for Bazzini (who was one of Puccini's teachers at Milan), which was based on Maffei's translation of Schiller. Iglew (talk) 06:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
However Simonetta Puccini, keeper of the Villa Puccini and Mausoleum and his granddaughter, clearly states that the final "t" must be pronounced. The name must be considered in Goldoni's Venetian dialect- its source not withstanding. If in Italian it would be Turandotta but in Venetian Turandot- pronouncing the "t".
I kept the assertion about Puccini's granddaughter but marked it with a {{fact}} as it has no source. I removed the remainder. Goldoni has nothing to do with this (I assume the editor meant Gozzi), but most importantly, the article is not the place to argue from personal opinion or orginal research and synthesis based on Venetian dialect. Find a published secondary reliable source which asserts this argument in relation to the pronunciation in Puccini's opera (not Gozzi's play), or leave it out. Voceditenore (talk) 06:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toscanini conducted the ultra-famous premiere on 25 April 1926 - but it was incomplete. We know that Ettore Panizza conducted the first performance of the Alfano-completed version, but do we know exactly when this was and who the singers were? That seems to be just as important a date in the history of the opera as Toscanini's premiere. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Nobody would deny that dramatic potential can be found in this tale. Puccini, however, did not find it; his music does nothing to rationalize the legend or illuminate the characters ..." and he [who? Puccini, or Kerman? need to be specific] apparently [why "apparently"? This is either a direct quote or it isn't — there is no "apparently" about it; there is only source and context] considered the opera as a whole "depraved".[where in the world is this word "depraved" quoted from? This absolutely must have a citation or it must be deleted.]
OK, thanks very much, V! By the way, while I'm here, I also have another issue, which is that the Critical Response section is very one-sded and contains none of the praises which have been heaped on the 12th most frequently performed opera (in North America). This is contrary to Wikipedia policy of NPOV, so I'm suggesting that the section contain pro-Turandot opinions in equal measure. I don't have my Puccini book on hand to cull the praises it contains, so hopefully someone else can dig out some plaudits. Softlavender (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Small side note: When I was trying just now to see if I could read my old lost "Spike" Hughes book on Puccini operas anywhere online (couldn't), I ran into a commentary by Father Owen Lee I thought was worth adding to the article, so I did. Unfortunately, it's a criticism as well! :) Softlavender (talk) 02:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is completely opaque to me. I know nothing about Opera in general nor Turandot in particular. Right in the middle this article speaks of "Ricordi" without any previous mention nor discussion of who he is. In the next sentence there is a wikilink to Ricordi which is a disambiguation page that leaves it ambiguous as to which of them this article means. Two are dead, and one is a business. I am guessing that Casa Ricordi is meant and I have changed the article to reflect my guess. Nick Beeson (talk) 11:51, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"As discussed, the music for Liù's death was not in fact Puccini's final composition, but had been orchestrated some nine months earlier."
The citation is to Ashbrook, William and Powers, Harold, Puccini's 'Turandot': the end of the great tradition, pp. 126-132. Page 132 of the source says that Puccini left a vocal/piano score for the initial part of the final duet -- I'm guessing this is what is meant. I didn't see anything in the source pages cited concerning when Liu's death was orchestrated. I suggest that this line be replaced to eliminate ambiguity (it doesn't say what the "final" composition was), and to provide a source for the fact re orchestration. It might also make sense to check whether the piano/vocal score marked the final time Puccini moved his pen to put notes on paper, or whether it marks sequentially the latest music in the Turandot score that is complete enough to be played and which can be attributed to Puccini. This discussion should also be moved to the composition history section, rather than the performance history section where it currently is. More generally, I think it would made sense to provide two versions of the Turandot story. There is the "received" version most people will have seen in program notes on CD's or at the opera (Puccini composes Liu's death, dies, etc.), and the "scholarly" version (Puccini composes various parts of Act III in varying degrees of completeness, dies, etc.).
The circumstances of Puccini's death, the unfinished score, and the interrupted first performance seem to fascinate people -- in part probably because there are different versions of the story. Some people have strong opinions on these things -- which is why I figured I'd give a head's up here on the talk page before making changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David.thompson.esq (talk • contribs) 14:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Antinoos69: I thanked you by mistake on your latest revert. Have you read Help:IPA/Italian (where {{IPA-it}} points; just click on the transcription) and Italian phonology, something you clearly know nothing about? According to the sources I provided, the correct standard IPA is with /ɔ/, whether you like it or not. Canepari also shows the “incorrect” French-fashioned pronunciation with a final stressed /o/. You are being totally disruptive. Pinging @Aeusoes1, Kbb2, and Nardog, experienced IPA editors. イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）08:55, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
English "o" as in "off" is an approximation, not the exact equivalent of Italian /ɔ/, though there's actually hardly any difference between the sounds transcribed with ⟨ɒ⟩ and ⟨ɔ⟩ in IPA (see [5]), English /ɔː/ as in THOUGHT is an example of [o], not [ɔ] (at least in RP and Australian English). ⟨ɔː⟩ is just a traditional transcription that doesn't have that much to do with the actual pronunciation of this vowel in the 21st century. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:01, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your audio file doesn’t download on my device, and I have studied a number of Romance languages, including Italian. From the audio files I have been able to download from elsewhere, it appears the Italian pronunciation of the o in Turandot is a sort of English long-o pronounced rather briefly. (German would be better suited for the distinction between the o’s.) That is not at all the sort of impression the average English speaker is very definitely going to get from being told to pronounce it like the o in “off.” Some sort of change or further specification needs to be made, perhaps to the pronunciation guide itself. Antinoos69 (talk) 12:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Antinoos69: we are going off track. The help and the freaking references mark an open O, transcribed with [ɔ] in our system (and in most systems actually), which in Italian contrasts with /o/ by degree of openness, not by length. If you wish to discuss the English approximation or the symbol used on the help page, do it on the respective talk, but do not change a sourced transcription which simply follows it. Turandòt, not Turandót. Thank you. イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）13:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Having studied Italian, I know Italian lacks the o-sound from “off,” just like all the Romance languages do. - this is seriously wrong. Italian, French, Portuguese and Catalan all contrast open and close varieties of "o" (and "e"). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then, despite being American and having lived in different regions of the country, I have never met an American who doesn’t “have the cot-caught merger.” As far as I’m concerned, the “cot-caught merger” merely represents standard American English. If a pronunciation guide depends on a pronunciation that only a minority of speakers of the target language use, then there is a serious problem with that “guide.” For crying out loud, at least 90 percent of the English don’t use the RP, according to the lead to the Wikipedia article on the subject. How doggedly ridiculous can you get? If the o-sound in question is not what I previously described above, I would still have absolutely no idea what the sound is supposed to be—and that’s from someone with multiple degrees, including in classics, and who works with multiple languages ancient and modern. Certainly we can do better than provide a “pronunciation” that only a tiny teacup of experts can understand. Antinoos69 (talk) 07:16, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Antinoos69: what has this even to do with the Italian transcription?!? You are purposely deviating the discussion using irrelevant arguments to your edition. Italian contrasts /ɔ/ and /o/, and pronunciation dictionaries clearly show Turandot should be pronunced with the open-mid phoneme. Full stop. Any other kind of discussion should be brought to Help talk:IPA/Italian and has nothing to do with the way the pronunciation is currently transcribed. And no, no, not a “tiny couple of experts” would be able to understand that pronunciation, it is you who are stubbornly convinced that the word should be pronounced with a very different sound from the one you hear in off, when it actually is not. Revert that once again and you shall be reported. Nothing else to say. イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）08:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Antinoos69: and before you even try to repeat your disruptive edits, I even bothered to record a standard pronunciation file: Please listen to it carefully and tell me if you hear an “English long-o” or something that gets closer to off instead. And I won’t accept the wrong answer to my question, since my patience has seriously come to an end. イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）09:20, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the fact that Nessun dorma has been sung at the World Cup multiple times and reached #2 in the UK be mentioned, albeit briefly? How else has the opera impacted the non-opera world? Most of the article now seems to focus on its position within opera. Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, meant to have a more global perspective. --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 14:53, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Iloilo Wanderer. I'm surprised that there is no mention of it all apart from being listed in the synopsis. I've added a very brief bit to the end of the performance history section and an even briefer mention in the lead. It's certainly as relevant if not more so as all the over-detailed speculation about the origin of the story and the pronunciation of "Turandot". Voceditenore (talk) 15:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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Incorrect. It's in three acts. I am looking at score right now. Additionally, Grove states, "Turandot; Dramma lirico in three acts by Giacomo Puccini to a libretto by Giuseppe Adami and Renato Simoni after Carlo Gozzi’s dramatic fairy-tale; Milan, Teatro alla Scala, 25 April 1926." See Julian Budden. Turnadot. doi:10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.O905166. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)4meter4 (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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