Talk:Johann Christian Bach

Johann Christian Bach
Johann Christian Bach
	Johann Christian Bach, painted in London by Thomas Gainsborough, 1776 (National Portrait Gallery, London)
Born	5 August 1735; Leipzig
Died	1 January 1782 (aged 46); London
Works	List of compositions
Spouse	Cecilia Grassi
Parents	Johann Sebastian Bach (father); Anna Magdalena Bach (mother);
Relatives	Bach family

Composers

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers articles

Germany

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Three operas?

It says that... In 1762, Bach travelled to London to première three operas at the King's Theatre, including Orione on 19 February 1763.

Other sources claim that he actually wrote two operas while at the King's Theatre. I know that Orione and Zanaida were written there, but does anyone know what could've been the third opera?

Thanks, Anonymous.

WHOA!

Ridiculously long list of meaningless words hidden under the words "Work List"! Oh no!

Really, to be serious, this needs to be cleaned up and the "Work List" moved to a separate page, and, keeping with Wikipedia tradition, called something like "List of works by J. C. Bach".

It's discouraging to readers (like myself!) to see an intimidatingly long list of works that are not even hyperlinked. There should be more information about musical style/aesthetic and cultural importance.

-Anonymous

Suggestion

From a skimming comparison between the first version of this article, which was based on the 1911 EB, and the entry in The New Grove Dictionary of Music & Musicians, there doesn't appear to be any factual errors here, unlike many other articles based on the 1911 EB. I did remove this POV statement:

His works, though elegant and pleasing, were ephemeral in character and have been largely forgotten.

Other than that, my editing was a matter of expanding the article based on what I read in the Grove. Dmetric 18:58, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mozart's 12th concerto?

Someone recently added a statement that "Mozart composed his Piano Concerto No. 12 in A Major as a tribute to Bach, his music and his importance to Mozart's own work. The Andante second movement of this concerto consists of a series of variations on a theme by Bach."

I'd like to see what that's based on. The books I've read indicate that there is a casual resemblance between the 2nd movement of K. 414's theme and one of J.C.'s overtures (which may have been intentional--or may not have been), but what was written into the article makes it sound to me like Mozart is depicted writing a formal tribute to J.C. Bach. As far as I know, that just didn't happen. Can anyone help with sourcing? Thanks. --MollyTheCat 00:46, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, one thing - series of variations?? It's an abridged sonata-form/ternary-form, as Mozart uses in many of his concerto slow movements. It's not even a loose set of variations of the Elgar Enigma sense. Lacks the feel. That said, I believe most if not all of the evidence for the slow movement being a tribute to JC Bach lies in the younger composer's friendship with the older, his having remarked on hearing of JC Bach's death that it was a sad day for music, and the similarity (I'll look up the overture - written by JC Bach in 1763 for the revival of La Calamità dei Cuori by Galuppi; the first bars of its slow movement, andante grazioso, in D, this information from Girdlestone's Mozart and his Piano Concertos, Dover repub) but I gather it's fairly close, as later between the incipit of the finale of KV 526 and a theme from a work of CF Abel) between the two themes. I don't know of any stronger evidence though. Schissel : bowl listen 02:26, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Schissel. I have now edited this section in a way I can live with, also removing the mention of "variations" based on your comments. The last straw was looking at the New Grove Mozart and seeing:

"The main theme of the Andante quotes, not necessarily intentionally, an overture by J.C. Bach (to La calamità dei cuori, 1763, published 1770); the music's elegiac character has led to its being interpreted as an act of homage to J.C. Bach, who had lately died" (--Stanley Sadie, The New Grove Mozart, NY: Norton, 1983, ISBN 0393300846, p. 103).

Since I don't know what "source" if any the person who tossed this in used, but I do know what Stanley Sadie (a noted Mozart scholar) says is reliable, I have adapted the article text accordingly. --MollyTheCat 13:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What does this mean?

I'd like to reword the following, if I could figure out what the author was trying to say:

Pop culture (in this case London musical critics and scholars) can shape history very easily. Men like Haydn deserve their great fame, but geniuses such as Johann Christian tend to suffer in the wake. The proof of this is in the concert halls across America and other countries; they are filled with the grand music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and more, but lacking in composers like Johann Christian Bach.

I can grasp the ending, but what "pop culture" and "London musical critics and scholars" have to do with this is utterly beyond me. Anyone have any ideas?

Also, does anyone have a source for the "90" symphonies attributed to J.C. in the current state of the article? This number seems rather high. -MollyTheCat 04:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the paragraph quoted above no longer exists, thanks to Adambiswanger1, who did an excellent rewrite. -MollyTheCat 16:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why Catholicism?

Do we know why he converted to Catholicism? AdamBiswanger1 23:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the exact reason is known. It did not happen until after J.C.'s move to Italy; I had thought I read something about it being related to his successful pursuit of the position of organist at Milan Cathedral (there were two organist positions). But on looking at The New Grove Bach Family (p. 316), I see that he was received into the Roman Catholic faith in 1757, but did not become organist till 1760. So career could have been a factor, but then again he did not switch back to Protestantism when he went to England, where it would have been to his advantage to do so. Perhaps there was something of a wish to distance himself from his father at work here (in religion as well as in musical style and delving into opera, which none of the other Bachs ever touched), but we can only speculate. --MollyTheCat 01:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someday in a flurry of motivation I'll run to the library and take out some books relating to JCB and answer our questions. AdamBiswanger1 02:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"90" Symphonies?

I would like to point out in the works list, the lack of inclusion of works published for harp or harp as well as keyboard in his time, that is to say, the additional instrumentation. This makes research very difficult for harpists. We have six concerti, and a Sinfonia Concertante recently published, at the least. All instrumentations should be included, even if publisher's designations, as it was the practice of the time and ever since. S.D.

Above I questioned the count of J.C. Bach's symphonies as approximately 90. I have now counted the ones in the The New Grove Bach Family work list for J.C. (symphonies on pp. 345-7), and found the following:

Number of entries for authentic symphonies: 48

Number of entries in "doubtful" classification: 43

This gives a rough total of 91, but the authentic grouping includes some duplications of symphonies published in slightly different editions or versions, and the doubtful group includes some works very unlikely to be authentic, including many symphonies attributed to various other composers.

A rewrite of the relevant passage of the article is therefore in order, but the reference is entangled with a lot of stuff comparing J.C.'s symphonies to Joseph Haydn's on the basis of how many symphonies each wrote. Most of these comparisons probably should be tossed as they are now seen to be bogus (since 90 authentic symphonies by J.C. do not exist), but maybe someone can think of a way to rewrite this that would keep what is really informational and edit out what is not. -MollyTheCat 09:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have now done a thorough rewrite of the so-called "Acclamation" section, renaming it "J.C. Bach and the Symphony" and revamping it considerably. I had to throw out a lot of the bogus comparisons to Haydn since they don't hold water, and give a rough idea of how their comparative symphonies are different. I welcome comments and further improvements. -MollyTheCat 09:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Galant music and J. C. Bach

J. C. Bach was not a typical galant composer and, I think, his style should not be evaluated by reverting to that of galant music in general- his music contains not only delicacy and clear lines but also drama (in his chamber works more often than his orchestral, that I've found- at least one oboe quartet, a two-piano work, for example, in their first movements more than their more typical minuet finales. And of course his C minor keyboard sonatas- from opp. 5 and 17- are famous attempts to combine styles- as was attempted often, it's true- before Mozart did so much more successfully and with fewer seams.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 18:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Schissel, your point is well taken. Since the article originated in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica's entry for J.C. Bach, it's possible that some of the outdated appraisals that you note are hold-overs from that source. As shown in my edit noted in the "'90' Symphonies?" topic above, this article continues to benefit from rewrites.-MollyTheCat 09:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From queen's music master to pauper

Can someone add what happened to JCB's fortunes that he ended up a pauper? The article jumps from queen's music master to burial in a pauper's grave. thanks. Delmlsfan 03:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Music Festival?

The article doesn't mention the festival J.C. Bach started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.174.73 (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Bach-Abel concerts? Schissel | Sound the Note! 07:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Symphony op. 18/2?

One of the more often-recorded symphonies, the double-orchestra symphony opus 18/2 in B-flat major, is not listed. True, opus 18 no. 2 is also given to a violin sonata- that's one of the main reason why one uses catalog numbers, not opus numbers, when one can; I don't know the WCno. of the symphony, or its history, such information not being common knowledge for JC Bach as it often is for better-known composers by now (consider this problem when it arises with opus nos. & Pa. nos. for Krommer!) ... - but is the symphony there in fact, just somewhere "else"? Schissel | Sound the Note! 07:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC) (Oh- that's the Adriano in Siria ov., isn't it...)[reply]

Wrong Picture Credits

The credit given for the portrait is wrong. It is not in the Museo Civico, Bologna as stated. In fact, that 1776 portrait of JC by Thomas Gainsborough is hanging in Room 12 at the National Portrait Gallery in London. Its catalogue number is NPG 5557. You can see it here

Prustage (talk) 12:44, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The confusion stems from these two images:

File:Johann Christian Bach.jpeg turns right, looks left, Museo Civico
File:Johann Christian Bach by Thomas Gainsborough.jpg turns left, looks right, National Portrait Gallery

It seems to me that the source information on #1 is wrong and that that image has been flipped. If so, that should be noted at Commons. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Johann Christian Bach. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

POTD

Picture of the day

Johann Christian Bach (5 September 1735 – 1 January 1782) was a composer of the Classical era, the eighteenth child of Johann Sebastian Bach, and the youngest of his eleven sons. Bach was taught by his father and then, after the latter's death, by his half-brother C. P. E. Bach. Bach moved to Italy in 1754, and then to London in 1762, where he became known as the "London Bach". Bach's compositions include eleven operas, as well as chamber music, orchestral music and compositions for keyboard music. In 1764 Bach met Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who was eight at the time, and spent five months teaching him composition. He had considerable influence on Mozart, and was later described by scholars as his "only, true teacher".

This portrait of Bach was painted in 1776 by Thomas Gainsborough, as part of a collection started by Bach's former teacher Padre Martini. It now hangs in the National Portrait Gallery, London.Painting: Thomas Gainsborough

Archive – More featured pictures...

Misattribution of Harpsichord Concerto recordings

After a ton of research, including consulting Bach experts and German libraries, it has been conclusively shown that a 1960’s recording by the Angelicum Orchestra of Milan,(first released on Harmonia Mundi, then Odyssey, and others, mis-identified two Concertos, (C minor and G major), as by J.C.Bach. C minor is actually by J. W. Hertel and the G Major is by Georg Anton Benda. The error may have been the result of two things:

1) No access by the West to pertinent materials kept behind the Iron Curtain.

2) The “discovery” of a set of parts which had the name “G.C.F. Bach” attached. My speculation is that communication between the (Western), scholar, (DeNys), and the Conductor, (Cattini), broke down, resulting in the omission of the “F” in the believed composers name. Doelrich (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See response at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers#Mis-attribution of J.C.Bach Harpsichord Concerto recordings. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Children

I was really surprised to learn about how many Children that Bach had. Mitchellwagg (talk) 20:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: 19th Century Concert Life

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mitchellwagg, OU Student Wiki, Kjm2025 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Zachmathewss, Kbart264.

— Assignment last updated by Jmares3218 (talk) 03:40, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox proposal

I'd like to propose that the following infobox (or something similar) be added to the article. Feel free to propose adjustments and improvements to the proposal. Thanks, Cremastra (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And cue the same arguments made 50 times over and over at other pages. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(sound of crickets) 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 23:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea. Spouse looks not notable. Image caption might end after the year. Fell free to implement, - you waited long enough, Cremastra. - I boldly made some fixed: no link to capital London, remove Germany which didn't exist in this sense until centuries later, made dates European. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:02, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Classic and Romantic Music History

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 9 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Annelisehuynh, Galbrauer, Leeyeeun1022, Athenaelm (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Megankaustin86 (talk) 04:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Burial Site - wrong photo

He is not buried at the church depicted in the photo, which shows St Pancras NEW Church, south-west of St Pancras Station. He is buried in St Pancras OLD Church Churchyard, St Pancras, London Borough of Camden, north of St Pancras Station, and a plaque commemorating him is in the garden surrounding St Pancras Old Church. The photo needs to be removed and replaced with a photo of the correct church. Bandekafsh (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]